WW2 Naval Courts

John #12, sounds like you have been reading my diary, the above is a virtually a mirror effect of my own experiences, like you my superiors (for want of a better word) never taught me a goddam thing, the only thing they ever pointed out was the brass I had missed polishing whilst on the bridge, the nearest I got to navigation experience were my tricks on the wheel. Went straight from that (PSNC) to 2nd mate on a yellow peril rock dodger, learnt more in a fortnight than in the previous four years

At least three,of the A.B's plus the Bosun on my first ship.They having sailed together often.I learned during a Messroom discourse. Of the time they were on a Tanker .Somewhere off the OZ Coast. Being tried for Mutiny, aboard H.M.S, K.G. V.
V.E Day had been declared ,some months earlier .May 8. 1945 .The Crew jointly felt, they should be relieved.Consequently "jacked up!
Transpires they were transported over to the Battle ship .Don't think think they were detained for long. V.J. Day being announced August 8.?
Do know . They were great guys and good Seamen .The eldest at the time I was with them ,early '49 as Deck-boy.Was hardly thirty years of age.They really'Had "Been there ,and done That!"

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Originally Posted by leratty

Ivan whether in times of war or as for most of us peace---longer (: Most were so dumb did not realise they had been insulted either.

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Richard, whilst a cadet with PSNC, I had often thought why am I doing this for £6 a month when I could be getting nearly £6 a week with overtime, and although my father (also a seaman) never interfered in my choice of career, except to say if you want to see the world join the MN as joining the RN you may get stuck in a shore establishment, which at times can be hard to get out of. The only other thing he pointed out to me was 'son the only real thing you will ever own is your signature, never betray it' he said you've signed indentures for three and a half years honour your signature, so I did, wonder how different my life would have been if I hadn't. I hasten to add I have no regrets the way my life turned out, but in hindsight maybe I should have been a little more careful with my money, but as I say no regrets but perhaps a lot of 'if only's'

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Originally Posted by Hugh

Re Naval Courts .... For Hazel, as Dominic Michael Stringer was admonished and cautioned as per your post #1, I doubt you will find anything else of substance but that is only my opinion. However you may be interested in this concerning Irish citizens.....
Regards Hugh

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HI HUgh,
It is true that for this one he was simpply admonished and cautioned but for one he was sentenced to two months imprisonment to be served in UK. As he arrived bck at LIverpool port and listed his address as c/o MN Pool Liverpool perhaps it was in LIverpool he served his time?

Hazel

#11
Hello John,
No I am not referring to a Court Martial although the word ‘Naval Court’ does give that impression. A Naval Courts Martial would only involve military seamen.

Since 1854 the Merchant Shipping Acts had contained provisions allowing British consuls in foreign ports to try offending merchant seamen before specially convened courts if convinced that the complaint laid by a captain or one or more other crew members was too serious or outside the scope of the normal disciplinary procedures of the ship.

Any naval officer or any consular officer of the Queen resident on any foreign station is authorised by the Merchant Shipping Act, 1854 to summon a Naval Court to enquire into wrecks and general complaints abroad, the Court consisting of not more than five and not fewer than three members, in her Majesty’s naval or consular service, and having power to administer oaths and being obliged to report the results of its enquiries to the Board of Trade. It has power in a proper case and for proper cause to supersede a master, to discharge seamen, to forfeit wages and to send offenders home for trial.

The Court could and did in many cases consist of ship masters who were in port at the time as well as consular and RN/RNR officers - maximum 5.

Regarding working with the naval party system: in your case, NP 1007 and in my case NP 1900 and NP 1015. On grey funnel ships, believe me, if you stepped out of line you were punished and if you fell foul of authority ashore and into the custody of the civil police you were punished twice – first by the courts and then by the captain aboard the ship. On both ships where I was a member of a NP we still had to work to naval discipline but very much relaxed and probably reflected the fact that we had mixed crews.

Hope that answers some of your questions John.
Regards
Hugh

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Originally Posted by Hazel Stringer

It is true that for this one he was simpply admonished and cautioned but for one he was sentenced to two months imprisonment to be served in UK. As he arrived bck at LIverpool port and listed his address as c/o MN Pool Liverpool perhaps it was in LIverpool he served his time?
Hazel

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Just looked again at your first post Hazel and yes it appears he was sentenced by the Marseilles Court. I would look for a reference in the EMPIRE BAIRN official logbook for when she docked back at the UK presuming of course that he was allowed to complete the voyage back home. Check for any reference in the narrative section as sometimes the prison was mentioned in the log.

Ahh - he travelled on the Monarch of Bermuda I see. Well you need to check the official logbook for 1945 for details of any handover to civil police. BT 381/3488

Regards
Hugh

Also had to pay for own uniforms and PSNC required a lot of them to be carried, blues, khaki's whites and dress whites, had to borrow a lot of money from Missions to Seamen, and only lent on the proviso I paid it back and not my parents (who were not in a position to do so anyway) took me nearly six years to clear that debt. I have never borrowed money since, if I can't afford it, I do without. Today's generation think it's a badge of honour to run up large credit card debts and then declare themselves bankrupt, and then two years later they can start all over again, the world and morals have certainly changed. Must be Monday, signed disgruntled of Torquay.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My first trip was on a passenger ship and I remember being ticked off by the staff captain for entering the dining saloon with the top button of my uniform jacket undone. We don,t wear our uniforms like engineers old chap were his exact words. Oil and water certainly did not mix in those days.

Some skippers and chief officers did have a distinct dislike of engineers for some reason.

I know when officers steward that at any function the deck and engine officers never got too close to each other.
Not from dislike but from fear of a talking to by their chief.

I saw that early on in 1957 when I was 3rd. Mate , when the old 2 mate an ex bosun who a few years off retirement got his masters and went master with me 2 mate and managed to have a collision in the River Plate ,already posted on.Anyhow told him to go and get stuffed after he told me not to mix with the engineers. Never did get on with him. The oil and water was often there in early years , myself having 2 cousins marine engineers maybe saw life a bit different and would never be a hypocrite and go along with the theme. Some of my best friends were engineers , some weren’t , the same as others , it was as bad as colour prejudice. JS