mutiny

[Captain Kong]

Thanks for that Eifion.
.
Here she is...
1945, 947grt, 1043dwt, 61.4 x 10.4m, motor tanker, 9 knots
Sir James Laing, Sunderland (772) as EMPIRE TEDASSA (‘Tanker Eastern Diesel’ class)
1947 FOSSARINA, Shell Petroleum,
with Shell she worked out of Singapore before Everards bought her.
The Wheelhouse still had charts from the Singapore area.
The cabins, were single berth, very good in those days, my cabin had the sign Certified for Two Tindals others were for Six men Lascars. etc. I think orignally a crew of about 40.
Nice little job, I did 6 months on her went everywhere round the Coast from Shetlands, Ireland to Channel Islands, had many adventures on her.

1950 AMITY, F.T.Everard & Sons
Broken up at Great Yarmouth 12/1965

Cheers
Brian

[Des Taff Jenkins]

HI All.
Only once in my 16 years at sea could i say that I disliked the skipper and chief mate, it was on a British Tanker and it was along eight months trip, during which we held her up in Durban, had a AB fall of the foremast in Aus while alongside discharging petrol, he subsequently had one leg shorter than the other [He shouldn't have been sent up when discharging] all the other ships I sailed on everyones got along ok.
Cheers Des

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[j.sabourn]

#13... John dont know about a licence for a firearm, dont beleive the Master had one in Jacobs. As far as I know at that one particular time due to the murder all ships had a pump action shot gun put on board. This was voted on by a circular sent around the fleet. I voted against, obviously the vote went the other way. The company went to the wall not too long after. The first attempted murder of the master if it can be called that was in Dakar, after being knifed in the stomach the master collapsed on my bunk, I had to get him to hospital, the ship was near on to completeing loading a deadweight cargo, and I had to get the offender into police custody. Think if I had a firearm I would probably have used, just to compensate for the inconvenience of the situation, it was also about 2 in the morning. I brought the master back to ship against the Doctors orders and sailed with him with a drip on him, left the seaman in jail in Dakar and 2 Scotland Yard detectives were sent out to bring him back to UK. He was also a Ceylonese citizen who clamoured to go to Ceylon, he was also married to a British lady in Cardiff.The Sunprincess was under the Lberian flag but Canadian owned, had 2 firearms on board a pistol and an automatic revolver. It was a monthly chore to sight count the rounds of ammo. and make an entry in the O.L.B. No personal gun licence here either. The third was the master who bought his firearm in Detroit and was a bit gung ho and waved it around on the slightest excuse, but doubt very much if he would of been stupid enough to use. He had no licence for as far as I knew so must have thrown overboard when he left the ship, although during the trip he had his wife on board up the Lakes, I went off the ship shortly after she went home and she phoned me up saying her husband had planted a 100 rounds of ammo in her case and wanting to know if I knew anything about, which I didnt, I beleive they were on the verge of a divorce and think that was the clincher. A firearm to my knowledge on board a ship does not require a licence, only when landed ashore. The hundred rounds of ammunition was discovered at Heathrow Airport and she was placed in a very precaurious position, she reckoned he did it on purpose. Could tell story after story by such goings on, but would get boring after a while. The Rosewood occurence in Dakar was before the post put in about the murder off Chile under the title of my worst Xmas at sea some time ago by someone else. I was on the Rosewood a few times and due I think to her accomodation structure seemed to vave a bad effect on some people, I was also on her when she was sold to the Greeks in Genoa which is another story in its own right. Cheers John S.

---------- Post added at 09:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 AM ----------

Added to previous post... Ships carry explosives in the form of Rockets, flares and the likes of verry pistols, which if used for the intention of harm would be very effective and these came under the LSA certificate. A verry pistol would be a very effective means of putting a bigger hole in someone than a .38 or .45 calibre bullet. Also all British ships I was on all carried a Straight Jacket. 2 sets hancuffs, and on some ships leg irons. Cheers JS

[Captain Kong]

When I was on the Georgic in 1955, we were running our lifeboats ashore at Cape St. Jaque, Viet Nam picking up the French Foreign Legionaires off the beach. We were under fire from the Viet Minh and it took three days to get 2,500 men off.
As we were getting the Legionaires through the shell doors into the ship the Catering Staff were supposed to help them into the accommodation or hospital if injured. They were all armed with rifles or side arms and grenades etc.
As I have written before, a lot of these were ffrom Walton Gaol in Liverpool.
When we had sailed, bound for Algiers, it was discovered that many many guns grenades etc were missing.
So the Military Police and the ships MAA and Officers did a complete search of the accommodation and eventually all the Arms were recovered.
Imagine if that lot had got bevied one night and went on the Rampage.
Cheers
Brian.

[John Arton]

The United Nations Convention of Law at Sea 182) (UNCLOS) gives you the law regarding firearms on board as it stands at present. Basically it is down to the flag state as to whether a firearm is allowed on board. If a ship carries a firearm it must be declared 24hrs before arrival at any port. In the case of S.Africa for instance ALL firearms must be licensed so a ship arriving in S. Africa with a firearm on board must have a licence for that firearm and I assume that the licence would have to have a name on it of a responsible person on board (the Master).
In the UK the MCA has effectively banned the carriage of small and large calibre hand guns as part of the ships equipment but rifles and shotguns may be carried as part of the ships equipment. This I think is due to the fact that on livestock carriers a gun is needed on board by the stockmen to carry out any humane killing of an animal that gets distressed or injured during the passage. Merchant shipping notice MSN 1704 gives the details of how and when a firearm may be carried and this came into force in 1989. My reading of the situation is that up till around 1982 there was little regulation covering the carriage of firearms on board and so it must have been up to the individual companies. I can imagine that many of the passenger liner companies may have placed a firearm on board to control unruly passengers i.e. Capt Kong LOL) but tramp and cargo liners, I doubt that those companies would have put or allowed a firearm on board. Referring back to my post where on the bulker that had the air rifle on board and the shore cleaning gang brought a shotgun on board to shoot off rust from inaccessible places, the same Captain got very excited on seeing how effectively a blast from a shotgun removed rust scale so he went back to C.P. with the idea that all the bulkers should have a shotgun on board for this same reason, which would save the company loads of dosh. He was told in no uncertain terms to forget the idea even though it looks like it may have been allowed under the flag state Hong Kong) rules at the time.
Looking back at some of my fellow seafarers at the time I shudder to think of what could have happened when in drink they may have decided to have some target practise with the ships shotgun.
rgds
JA

[j.sabourn]

Would have really finished up bombed out of their mind. Reminds me of trying to get into Saigong as a port of refuge about 1970, was the heap of rubbish I was on which walked off in Japan. Was more ships trying to get out, small boats and everything, was even looking for homemade rafts. Saw all the pyrotechnic display and thought it must be Chinese New Year, was only when the fireworks got near realized it was tracer. Must have been young and stupid in those days. Nearly got clobbered later by a chinese gunboat as on the wrong approahes to Hong Kong. JS

---------- Post added at 09:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------

#26... John I dont think at the time I am referring to that many seamen from third world countries would even know what a convention of law at sea was, and if they did would mean very little to them. I only sailed with Philipinos once, some on here have said how good they are. The ones I sailed with I would say 50 percent carried a weapon of some kind and that would probably include firearms.Other third world crews were very similar. One can die quoting a convention if the other side doesnt agree doesnt do the victim much good. As far as conventions go the only crews or nearest to those following have been European crews. However nowadays with having such few on board must make it that much easier to make and enforce such rules and regulations. Cheers John S.

[John Arton]

John S
From around 74 onwards I have only sailed with Filipino ratings or Indian.
Never saw any guns with any of them but one bosun Filipino) I sailed with had made a load of money turning out hand guns on the engine room lathe on a ship he was on, running between Hong Kong and Manila. He used to sell them to the private armies guarding houses in Manila. The biggest problem with the Filipinos was with deck knives and on a couple of occasions have had to step in when an argument between themselves got out of hand. A short sharp command always calmed them down in all the cases I experienced. Mostly the incidents involved alcohol but that was most likely the cause of most arguments at sea irrespective of crew nationality.
With the Indians for some strange reason I was always having to confiscate hand made knives made from a sharpened hacksaw blade off the lower caste crew members such as the kairsee whallah and the crew cook but never experienced any serious fights with them. The odd occasion when fights did break out it was a few slaps round the head then one of the antagonist's would run away crying.
As a cadet I once got threatened with a knife by a Basque O.S. but the rest of the Spanish crew jumped on him and beat him up pretty severely.
Doing a taster trip round the coast with Blue Star when I was 15, the Chinese bosun twice came at me with a knife over some minor misunderstandings regarding a visit to the Dentist and me being two minutes late in unlocking the booby hatches at the start of the working day but hey ho it was fun (despite being terribly sea sick as a result of being fed brandy by the third mate and some rough North Sea weather on the passage from Dunkirk to Hamburg.)
rgds
JA

[Jim Brady]

It depended on the country of registration whether guns where allowed on board even for security guards sailing through Somali pirate areas.Some companies re-registered their ships in Cyprus to enable them to carry armed guards aboard their ships.
Regards.
Jim.B.

[j.sabourn]

#28... Werent likely to see guns waving around by crew members. I happened to see on Sunday Inspections in places I shouldnt have opened. What the eye doesnt see the mind doesnt bother about and I never made a big fuss about, anyhow I was only the mate, and was the old mans perogative. Cheers JS

---------- Post added at 12:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 AM ----------

#29... Jim I retired 2002 and served on numerous types of vessels. The 49 years I was at sea apart from the alterations to the Rule of the Road and various MOT notices I was obliged to read, tried to work a safe ship as the way I had always been taught by professional seamen. It seems that people put a big thing on guns at sea, firearms were quite usual in a general cargo, firearms to the way I was brought up was to the perogative of the master, no matter how many pieces of legislation are waved in our faces, the actual running of a ship is the resposibility of the ships crew, with the master holding the ultimate on any life and death decision, they can make any laws they want, as long as that ship is in in international waters it is up to the master of the vessel, unless they are going to drop a party of US seals or SAS on vessel. Someone mentioned a humane killer, on the Sunprincess we carried 2 firearms, as mate there I was resposible for the livestock on deck and was issued with a bolt gun to kill any animal as necessary. I was fortuanate and never had to fire a bolt into a horses head. Handguns if one has ever used are not too accurate a weapon however a shotgun can create havoc in a comfined space. I think firearm misdemeanours are very few and far between on merchant ships. The murder on the Rosewood the Culprit had 3rd. Degree Syphilis as this was in the early 70"s and must be at least 40 years ago so is hurting no one by such statement, anyhow think it was public knowledge after the old bailey trial at the time.Its not the gun that kills you its the person pressing the trigger. They should be kept away from unstable people. Cheers John S

[robpage]

UK Firearms law is a very defined code , hand guns of any calibre are basically banned with the exception of captive bolt and humane free projectile guns used as humane killers . There is a petition on E-Petitions to bring back.22 calibre sporting pistols to enable British shots to train in the UK . The licence is a personal issue , and can require a agreement letter from your own GP as to your personal state of mind . So a Blanket licence under UK law for a captain of the ship is impossible . A shotgun certificate is similar , these were only licenced from 1968 , and then you could buy the licence at the Post Office , In 1988 the law was tightened as to the storage and issuing of certificated , so pre 1988 it was basically a free for all , since it is a tough thing to acquire , At that point the popular 5-shot pump action shotgun was restricted to firearm certificate holders only . Travel with a gun overseas is a nightmare of paperwork too , some airlines are difficult .

I would suggest it is almost impossible to legally carry a firearm on a British Ship without a personal FAC or Shotgun Certificate , one interesting fact is there are 10 Shotgun Certificates in the UK held by children under the age of 11