Ocean ans and liberties

I sailed on the Table Bay, ex Tipperary Park, a Vancouver built Park , and she was flush decked, no raised focsle. p.s. the lookout on the bow was a bit scary at times in mid atlantic!

HI BRIAN, Take a look at the Website, FORTSHIPS, BY ANGELA DELROY JONES, EXPLAINS ALL ABOUT PARKS AND FORTS, THEY WERE IDENTICAL, NO FOCASTLE HEAD, SOLID BULWARK FOR FIRST 50 OR SO FEET, THERE WAS A MUCH SMALLER CLASS ALSO NAMED PARK, BUT TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM A FORT, MANY PARKS WERE LAUNCHED WITH A FORT NAME, GIVEN A PARK NAME ON COMPLETION. Attachment 13719 Attachment 13720 THE SMALLER PARK TYPE. URMISTON GRANGE WAS BUILT ON THE CLYDE AS EMPIREAttachment 13721 PIBROCH.

Thanks for that Tony,
I had sailed on quite a few of those type of ships in the 50s so I guess I got the Urmston Grange mixed up with one of the others. I know, as the photo shows , it had a raised focsle head.
Cheers
Brian.

HI BRIAN, easy to make a mistake between a Empire and a fort, all look much the same, all originated from Empires, or from just pre war Tramp Designs, Its strange really, most Ships used to have a Focastle Head, then along came the Liberties, Oceans Forts and Parks all flush decked. i think Ships with a Focastle Head could handle Rough Weather better, must have been safer on FWD Lookout, then it was re instated when T2 and Victory Ships arrived. , slightly off topic, but i have often thought the Derbyshire would have had a better chance with a decent Focastle Head. Tony W.

Tony W
Still off thread.
I could never understand Naval Architects designing ships without a proper focsle, though I can understand that there be some cost savings, I feel that these are far outweighed by the advantages.
The load line regs have freeboards that are assigned based on a "standard ship" that has a minimum bow height, amongst other criteria. Free board can be reduced if you have enclosed superstructures above the freeboard deck, such as watertight forecastles, accommodation etc. to such an extent that a bulk carrier (for instance) can end up having the same freeboard as a tanker (Def. a vessel designed to carry only liquids in bulk and having only small openings in the freeboard deck, clowed by steel, gasketed covers).
I sailed on a number of bulkers that only had a slightly raised sheer forward and no raised focsle and the amount of water that used to come over the bow was frightening at times, even if the weather was not particularly bad i.e. not typhoon/hurricane. Fortunately we never suffered any damage.
One Panamax bulker I was on got a reduced freeboard (and an extra 6000 tons of cargo capacity) purely by fitting removable stanchions to form a walkway across the hatch covers. As these hatch covers and coamings extended around 2 metres up from the freeboard deck this meant that we were raising the safe access for crew members to get forward by the same amount and thus the reduction in freeboard. This ship also did not have a raised focsle.
If you go through the loadline regs. there is very strict criteria regarding freeboard, deck fittings etc. yet Naval Architects seem hell bent on wringing out the maximum amount of reductions to freeboard as possible using all sorts of legal building and design methods, yet they never set foot or sail on any of their designs.
Another thing I could never get my head around was the way some ships have their anchors sticking out like Dumbos ears and having to take the full force of any seas, instead of being stowed in pockets or at least flush against the ships hull.
rgds
JA

hi John, those protruding Anchors remind me of a Specie of Golfish, has eyes just like that, is it done to protect the bulbous bow. ? Ship Design in last 5 years has gone crazy, it seems all that has been learned over years of experience has been thrown out the window, Rig Supply Ships with Bows like the front of a Jumbo Jet. . but lack of FWD Freeboard to me is critical to the safety of a Ship, as you say, the designers have never set foot on a real ship, let alone sailed on one in heavy weather, it seems all the rules have changed, priority now is , how much Cargo can i squeeze inside, with the least manning possible, Derbyshire and similar Ships were disasters waiting to happen, just needed the right circumstances. something must be really wrong after all the years of experience uk has had of Shipbuilding. all the continuing engine room fires on Cruise Ships with no back up systems that operate, , no lessons learned there, just continue to build bigger. Box Boats that break in half, a bit different in there case, as often because of overloaded boxes, even so a design fault that it can take place, that and unstated hazardous contents, it seems they wont agree to individual weighing, so we have to live with that. the Ships Safety , and the Crews come last. its all about money. Tony W.

John do the same rules still apply to open and closed shelter deck vessels. A lot of ships I was on could be converted back to closed shelter deck simply by bolting on the steel doors in the tween decks. Regards John Sabourn

John S
Shelter decks I believe (though could be wrong as I have never seen anything built with shelter decks for years) were taken out of the load line convention in I think, the 60's.
The tabular freeboards only have two types of vessels Type A (tankers) and type b (all other ships) and as I said before you can get reductions in freeboard for any enclosed watertight space above the freeboard deck, along with excess sheer, increased minimum bow height etc.
The tables are designed around a "standard ship" which has the highest level of construction based on years of experience.
Standard ship has a length/depth ratio of 1/15, fwd sheer twice after sheer, minimum bow height and no accommodation etc.
Tony
Anchors stick out like Dumbos ears as those ships are built with no flare fwd so without the anchors protruding from the hull they would crash against the hull every time they were let go. Flare forward has the effect of deflecting any seas away from the focsle so these ships built without any flare are very wet on the focsle in any seas.
As for fwd. lookout positions, when have you seen a modern vessel with a fwd. lookout house or position?
rgds
JA

I remember seeing those ships with the aircraft bows, no flare at all and what looks like reverse construction to us oldies, in the Dan Dare comics of the 1940's and 50's. It is surprising how many things have evolved from comic strip illustrations, space stations are another example. Can anyone think of anymore, sorry if this is hijacking, if us oldies don't say what we are thinking at the time we are thinking of it, we forget what we were thinking about!!

If we could go back in time 50 years not long ago, mobile phones and talking face to face was considered the musings of the comic strips. Although it still sounds weird, maybe time travel is also on the cards. Maybe if we are still around (doubtful) we can all go back to the 50"s and stay there. Although this might be a bit uncomfortable for those under 50, while we are cavorting in Baghdad they would still be in Dads Bag. Cheers John Sabourn.