What's happend ?

Hi shipmates, Hi Captain Bill Davies, You are one of the many british offices who left so may I asked you a question? If the foreign crews were payed the same as british crews why would the ship owners go F.O.C. ? Did you pay tax? 4 to 1 for the same money Chinese and goa' and many others were payed less please read the book see previous posting for details As I tryed to say British trained officers deck and engineers, were allways in demand by all shipping companys around the world at that time, they were the best I was offer work on many F.O.C. ships but would not take it too many reports in the press of dodge ships and bent company agents who would not pay you any wages after many months at sea? This did happen to many ex british merchant navy men on many f.o.c.lines, I knew a few of them myself and Safety at sea on some ships was a major issue{ this was not unoin proganda or heresay} I knew the top man in Cardiff docks, the number one in heatlh and safety, but major breach s' happen not just in british waters it was reported world-wide!!! How many ships were sunk? for the insurance money? Some officers did very well but at what cost ?

What's happened?in a nutshell the easy answer is,its whats called progress.There is only Capt.Kong that has mentioned the word aeroplane,thats what brought about the demise of the passenger liner which I imagine was responsible for the employment of most rank and file seaman.Think about it,who is going to spend 6 days on a ship to North America or 3/4 weeks down to the Colonies when it can now be done in hours and is most probably far cheaper.For all of you that have sailed out of Liverpool you will all remember all the berths being full and all the sheds being filled to the brim with cargos from all over the world,ships were anchored at the bar waiting for a berth.You could'nt imagine the annual tonnage turnover.Now all we have here more or less is the container base here in Seaforth,we are told that the annual tonnage for the port is far greater than it ever was in the days that we remember,it is hard to believe but I am assured it is fact.Imagine some 30.000 dockers now that work being carried out by a couple of hundred on the books of Drake cargo handlers!!!
Yes when I was a kid growing up by the docks in Bootle and hearing the seaman talking about these far away places with strange sounding names I knew then "I'm going to have some of that".Ti's a pity it is not there for the youth of today,if it was I'm sure we would see a great drop in the crime rate.
Regards.
Jim.B.

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Originally Posted by Jim Brady

What's happened?in a nutshell the easy answer is,its whats called progress.There is only Capt.Kong that has mentioned the word aeroplane,thats what brought about the demise of the passenger liner which I imagine was responsible for the employment of most rank and file seaman.Think about it,who is going to spend 6 days on a ship to North America or 3/4 weeks down to the Colonies when it can now be done in hours and is most probably far cheaper.
Regards.
Jim.B.

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Yes,but on the other hand there are far,far more cruise ships now ,which require crews,than there were ever passenger ships,and their numbers are still growing. It's not so much the travelling patterns (air travel) of the former passenger clientele that caused the demise of them,but also the unreliability(strikes etc.) and high British crewing costs combined with greedy shipowners which sounded the death knell of the passenger liner in this country.l.Cruises were generally out of reach of the average holidaymaker in the 60's and 70's so cruise liners generally ran with under-capacity,and weren't profitable,so the companies didn't like them.
Many British shipping companies gained experience of foreign crews from about the 50's onwards employing them in their cargo vessels,finding them much cheaper and more committed than the average white crew.

It's sad that all these cruise ships today don't employ British seafarers(never mind which flag-that has no relevance).It's just that the old British crews began to leave en masse when they saw the writing on the wall,until very few were left,most becoming acclimatized to a new life ashore,with no desire to go go back to sea,much as they loved the life at sea.


It's only our generation who mourn the demise of the British M.N. Many of our younger generations today don't even know what it is....How can they ?. Most of them are only just aware of the significance of WW 1 and and 2,and then only because we have Remembrance Day once a year.
Look at how many younger generations urinate on war memorials or deface cenotaphs..

All things must pass,and in years to come nobody will remember the M.N.or will even think about a career at sea anyway.

The worlds ports will become clogged up with cruise ships awaiting their turn. Each cruise ship will have a constant supply of 'labour'(I can't bring myself to call them seamen) who will sign on for 'free' (no wages)or even pay,just for the privelege of getting them out of their squalid third-world existence,and maybe give them a chance to make some business illegally,or even enter another country illegally....


That might happen,but we will be long gone by then.

Surfers might stumble across web-sites like this in years to come-and read about the M.N. with bemusement or disbelief.
History books might devote a paragraph or two about it,It won't matter,like it does to us at the moment,so let's continue to make the most of it .

We've had the demise of the British MN in the 70's ,Iit can't get any worse.. and it certainly won't revive or re-invent itself.

We're enjoying remembering it's halcyon days.I think Captain Kong said.Enjoy the stories and memories.The world will never see the likes of us again.


Gulliver

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Originally Posted by terry ryan

still no reply on this book, come on people, or are you forgetting your ancestors poor past.
terry

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I read this book several years ago Terry.

p.s try reading the ragged trousered philanthropists by robert tressel, will make you cry and laugh, such pathos, and most of our parents would have experienced those times.
terry
ragged trousered philanthropists

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still no reply on this book, come on people, or are you forgetting your ancestors poor past.
terry --------------------------------------------------------------------

Terry, we experienced all that poverty in the 30s and 40s. I have no wish to read about someone elses poverty stricken life. I have been there.
My poor old Dad started work at the age of 12, worked hard and was exploited all his life. Even when he died of dust on the lung, bysinosis. The Trade Union didnt help him, The employer, the mighty international Coutaulds Group, came to our home and forced my newly widowed mother to repay his miserable monthly pension of £1. 30p. He died on the 12th of the month, the pension was paid on the first of the month for the month.
My great Aunt started work in the coal mines at the age of 10.
As regards the Trade Unions, the workers are more exploited now by their own Union bosses.
They all live in oppullant luxury. They do not do what they are paid for, to negotiate, they get the members to go on strike for them, the workers lose their pay and then lose their jobs. The Union Bosses are still on huge salaries, free cars, and free luxury homes, all paid for by the members. When the members go on strike with no pay, the Union bosses are still getting their Big saleries,
The Trade Unions were a good thing in the past, improving working conditions and wages, but now you have a bunch of Gangsters running the Unions.
I believe every man is in charge of his own destiny. I never ever not once had any help from a Trade Union.
I marched around Liverpool in the 1955 and 1960 Seamens Strikes and really did carry the banner, I was on TV in 1960.
I was thrown off the Pool, my Union Delegate, Paddy Magrath, said give us a Fiver and I will get you back on the Pool, five days wages, to a man who I paid subs to to get me employment. I took him round the back of the Pool and filled him in.
I then got a Pier Head jump on the Empress of France after sleeping in the Church Doorway of St James on Park Lane in Liverpool for two months and standing on the corner of Paradise Street panhandling.
Where was my Union???,
I got wise to myself then. I was a raging Commie until that moment. the workers being exploited by the workers representative.
I went and did my tickets up to Master, I got my pay rises and better conditions and better leave pay, longer leave and better Pension that way. On my own. I went from a good union man to a man who hates unions.
As I said, every man is responsible for his own destiny.
Cheers
Brian.

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Originally Posted by Louis the Amigo

Hi shipmates, Hi Captain Bill Davies, You are one of the many british offices who left so may I asked you a question? If the foreign crews were payed the same as british crews why would the ship owners go F.O.C. ? Did you pay tax? 4 to 1 for the same money Chinese and goa' and many others were payed less please read the book see previous posting for details As I tryed to say British trained officers deck and engineers, were allways in demand by all shipping companys around the world at that time, they were the best I was offer work on many F.O.C. ships but would not take it too many reports in the press of dodge ships and bent company agents who would not pay you any wages after many months at sea? This did happen to many ex british merchant navy men on many f.o.c.lines, I knew a few of them myself and Safety at sea on some ships was a major issue{ this was not unoin proganda or heresay} I knew the top man in Cardiff docks, the number one in heatlh and safety, but major breach s' happen not just in british waters it was reported world-wide!!! How many ships were sunk? for the insurance money? Some officers did very well but at what cost ?

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Louis,I actually worked on a few Liberian and Israeli flagged ships.They were put ‘under the umbrella’ of an associated British company for tax and political reasons and I was engaged from an office in London.
The pay on my Liberian and Israeli flagged ships was significantly better than British companies at the time,and we were paid in U.S.Dollars. I didn’t pay any tax,but made sure that my National Insurance stamps were deducted monthly. I never regretted that,as it will all count towards my eventual state pension.
Later I went back British flag,but by this time they were employing Indian and some Filipino officers .
I was definitely the poor relation,as their salaries were worth 4 to 6 times more back in their own countries. They could afford to go ashore in every port,and came back loaded with all the latest electronic goods and cameras,as well as airfreight them back to their own countries for their families.
When they went on leave after eight months,they were ‘millionaires ‘ in their own countries,and usually spent their leaves building yet another house for some relative or other.
Consequently,if they were to lose their job through misbehaviour,they had a hell of a lot more to lose financially than we Brits,so they were always very well-behaved.The company preferred them because of that !
Safety-wise,I did find the Indian officers no different competence-wise to we Brits.Their tickets and competence on a par with ours,but I often wondered about the Filipino ticket,which I heard could be bought under the table, in Manila market if you knew where to look… I never felt in danger due to alcohol-related actions,mainly because they never drank too much,if at all !
The presence of a bit of League of Nations on board also helped I think to temper relations,rather than have all one nationality on board.
Many of us Brits though could avoid tax(notice I said avoid,not evade) and did so. I forget how it was done(I used to engage a special finance/tax advisor)…I think the rules were that one didn’t pay Income Tax as long as the vessel didn’t come back to the U.K. (ours didn’t),you stayed out of the U.K.for 6 months then had no longer than 60 days(2 months) at home…as I said I’ve forgotten the exact details.
So it was well worth it pay-wise and bought me quite a few little sports cars over the years…as well as get a mortgage for my first house.
So all in all it was a positive thing for me.
　
Gulliver

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Originally Posted by Captain Kong

p.s try reading the ragged trousered philanthropists by robert tressel, will make you cry and laugh, such pathos, and most of our parents would have experienced those times.
terry
ragged trousered philanthropists

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
still no reply on this book, come on people, or are you forgetting your ancestors poor past.
terry --------------------------------------------------------------------

Terry, we experienced all that poverty in the 30s and 40s. I have no wish to read about someone elses poverty stricken life. I have been there.
My poor old Dad started work at the age of 12, worked hard and was exploited all his life. Even when he died of dust on the lung, bysinosis. The Trade Union didnt help him, The employer, the mighty international Coutaulds Group, came to our home and forced my newly widowed mother to repay his miserable monthly pension of £1. 30p. He died on the 12th of the month, the pension was paid on the first of the month for the month.
Brian.

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Very sad Brian .That’s how it was.
I have a story about byssinosis too.
My maternal grandmother from Oldham,Ivy Winterbottom-good northern name that) was born Christmas Eve 1900-hence the Ivy). She worked after leaving school ,in the cotton mills,and married my grandfather David(I’m named after him). She had one son,and then a daughter(my mother).
Her husband David aged 33 , then caught pneumonia and died,my mother was a 6 months old.babe in arms.
So Grandma Ivy ,then only 30 years old,struggled to bring up her two little kids,and had to go back to the cotton mill. For the next 25 years she worked there,apart from wartime-when these gallant women helped to assemble Lancaster bombers at Avro’s !
In 1959,aged 59 she was diagnosed with brown lung disease(byssinosis),caused as we know from inhaling cotton dust particles.
Her doctor gave her a few years to live at the most. She had a very bad chest,lots of phlegm,but never let it make her become bedridden and with the help of a lot of lemons to loosen it,managed her disease well.
That was at 59. Afew years later she received a one-off payment from the Industrial Diseases Board for her byssinosis.She never expected anything,and typical Grandma,treated the whole family with it,which we never asked for. Aged 75...they sent her another payment…they never expected her to live so long She really had a good laugh at that !
She died, in her sleep,all marbles still intact at 92. She had been widowed 62 years,and had ‘been dying’ for 33 years !……but you would never have guessed,what a kind,generous,loving bundle of fun that lady was…so typical of her generation.
My father doted on her,his mother-in-law,as did we all.At her funeral.the place was crowded out,so many people knew her,and how kind she had been to many,despite her illness..She would give you her last halfpenny.
My Dad said “We’ll never see the likes of Ivy again.”
No we won’t.

My Dad said “We’ll never see the likes of Ivy again.”
No we won’t. :- Gulliver

There were many, many Ivys` in those days, David. Hard working, exploited with that dust, no compensation.
then discarded[I]. “We’ll never see the likes of Ivy again.”[/I] Very true, that generation brought up families without the Benefits of todays whinging Ivys`They were all good women.
Good on her for beating the system and living with that dreadful disease for another 33 years.
The sad stories of those days can never be printed with the same true feeling of what life really was about.

Cheers
I am off for a whisky after that.
Off to the Vindicatrix Reunion first thing in the morning. I have my barrel of ale.
Cheers
Brian.

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Originally Posted by terry ryan

still no reply on this book, come on people, or are you forgetting your ancestors poor past.
terry

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Just bought it Terry in a second hand book shop. It is a bit motheaten but looking forward to reading it as I have heard so much about it over the years.

Alec.

In reply to captian Kong and Gulliver, yes times were tough then, my mother in law had nine kids, her sister thirteen. No fancy foods, no welfare and in the early days no electricity, just an oil lamp which we now have. But they produced good people who worked hard for a living, gave a fair days work for a fair days pay. The younger generation of today have little or no concept of how such people managed to survive two world wars, a great depression and all the illnesses life could throw at them. In yeas to come they might just read about some of it on sites such as this, but doubt they will vere fully comprehend what that generation did so that they can have the luxurious life of today.