Missing At Sea?

[Doc Vernon]

Yes quite a possibility indeed and that is what i was in thinking?

I too think that and what you say the one on the Dolius is your Man!

Post #13 is not the one .

First name(s) William

Last name Murray

Year 1933

Place Ship Dulcibelle

Country Great Britain Born 1891 Dundee

Archive reference BT 334

Source Deaths At Sea 1891 – 1972

The Dulcibelle was as i see it a Fishing Boat . ??
Cheers

[Marian Gray]

Apologies for delay locked myself out daughter's flat with my laptop inside! Had to wait till she arrived home this morning before I could retrieve it.

#18,Doc, Best to completely ignore my #5 as it was only ever a possibility.

My post #7&#10, I believe is correct but to be 100% sure Tony should purchase the marriage cert of William & Elizabeth and hopefully that will confirm his rank and place of birth and indeed if we have the right Wm Murray.

Hugh suggests locating the last known address of William to see if it coincides with William's Master and Mates Cert of Competency. Thanks to him we have the correct Discharge No too.

Have tried to find Elizabeth's date and place of birth to then locate where she is buried. However as usual there are too many to consider. I can try the 1939 census but need the address to whittle down the number.
Their daughters names would be helpful also if still living with her at that time.

Another possibility is an Elizabeth Byrne born in Dublin whose father Valentine ran/owned a fish & chip shop. He died aged 46 and I presume that Elizabeth moved to Liverpool a little later. Am I right in stating that her brother Patrick [your grandfather?] joined the Royal Dublin Fusiliers in 10/2/1919 if so will post that record. The more names and dates you supply Tony helps me to make a connection to William rather than assumptions and getting it wrong.

Will look for William's Master and Mates Cert of Competency. Saw it on Thursday but did not retain.

As to my sources of 'information'- I subscribe to ''Find My Past'' and ''Ancestry World Wide'' instead of ''Ancestry UK'', invaluable, if like me your rellies travelled and settled beyond the land of their birth, 'tis also good for locating seamen even the ones who don't wish to be found Both sites usually offer free introductions throughout the year but also offer pay as you go options if you don't want to commit to a yearly subscription.

Forgot to mention ''Scotland's People'' site pay as you go only I'm afraid but reasonable to access info re William Thomas Murray b 1893 Lasswade Ref No:691/ 257

[Tony Byrne]

Marian you are an Angel!!

So let's catch up! I've now subscribed to Find My Past and have found a probate hearing for a William Murray who died on 14/5/1933 (ironic) which is linked to Elizabeth Murray! The hearing took place in Cleator Moor in the registry of Carlisle. This is very near Whitehaven, which lends itself well to Doc's fishing boat scenario! Here's what else I think I know;

Elizabeth was born in Dublin in 1885. Her parents were Peter & Bridget (McKeon) Byrne. I believe Elizabeth came to Liverpool before her parents.

Elizabeth marries William in 1919. Her address is given as 196 Rice Lane, Liverpool. His is given as 141 City Rd, Liverpool.

In 1921 I think they are living at 2 York St, Walton, Liverpool. Their daughters' names were Mary B (Bridget?) and Elizabeth born I think in '22 and '24. In 1939 Elizabeth and her girls are living at number 4 Rice Lane, Liverpool.

I'm fascinated by the Valentine/fish & chip shop thing! Must follow that lead.
I thought my Grandfather Patrick joined the Royal Irish Rifles and transferred to the Machine Gun Corps later. We don't know for sure...or dates. Any advice will help.
I will buy the marriage certificate if needed.

Many thanks to Hugh & Doc too!!

Sorry if I'm not 100% on detail, I will catch up!!

[Marian Gray]

Lordy Lordy Tony, between you and JWS I'm going to be busy tonight The information you gave regarding probate doesn't appear to be our man in the Seaman's Hospital who died 31st Dec 1932 sounds more like the chap who actually did die at sea in 1933 though if I remember correctly their wives names differed. Will go back and look before I go any further.

PS Have been called a few names on here thankfully those members have left, I answer to most Angel is a first

[Tony Byrne]

You're very welcome Marion....tomorrow you could be a superstar!!!

[Doc Vernon]

Excuse my ignorance here!
I am a wee bit confused now, as reading the above it seems that the Second William is now on the agenda as the one ???
I though that it was the First one that was posted, the one that was on the Dulios ?
Am i reading things correctly !!

In my last post #21 i had said that it was not the one and given the details of same, so where are we now please!!!!!!!
Thanks

[Tony Byrne]

I honestly don't know Doc....and my head hurts I started researching my family tree, mostly through Facebook, and along the way have met this Great Aunt & Uncle who have led me on this mad quest to find out what the hell happened to them

The only tangible lead I have now is the William Murray who died in May 1933 and whose probate affairs are attached to an Elizabeth Murray (nee Byrne??).

It looks like there may have been 3 William Murray's who died 'at sea' within 6 months of each other. Or, did Elizabeth's husband actually die at sea, as it says on an old family record??

[Marian Gray]

Hello Tony, You and me both have a sore head and it's not from the weight of that halo you slapped on my head yesterday! The only other Wm Murray I can find is below, though nothing to confirm his wife is called Elizabeth. Hugh doesn't think it's the correct William. This search basically boils down to conformation of name with or without the middle Thomas, country of birth and next of kin. Without proven data to cross match the little you have it's nigh impossible to select any and be confident you have the right one. Can I suggest you approach your gt,aunt & uncle and ask them can they at least say if William was Scottish, Irish or Liverpool born or any other little snippets that come to mind. From that I can usually find the Baptism details and look for a tree with the parents names when truly stuck.

The probate record could be another red herring as you do not have the spouse's maiden name [Byrne] listed and though tempting to go with that you could end up basing your tree on the wrong William.

Now that you have confirmed that Elizabeth was born in Dublin will try and trace from that angle. The other option is did the daughters of William & Elizabeth have children of their own that you could approach? Family lore from them could offer a few wee nuggets. To confirm the correct Elizabeth is the sister of your grandfather I would like if possible their other siblings names to compare to the census that's available. Then I can send the Army record of the Patrick who enlisted in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, this particular Patrick was born in Co.Kildare only 30+ miles from Dublin.

If we have to branch out from the Merchant Navy to dot the i's and cross the t's then Doc might prefer the thread is moved to private mail?

The William below is a deck trimmer from Buckie, Aberdeenshire last known address 24 New St, Buckie - washed overboard.

BMD_MTM_BT334_0092_001-006 (1).jpg

[Tony Byrne]

Thank you so much for all this Marian. Yes, I'm happy to move this to private mail, address is (Removed for safety reasons)

I can give you quite a few answers from your list.

Doc, Hugh et al, thanks for your time

[Marian Gray]

Thank you for your email add Tony have copied it hopefully Doc will remove it now asap.
Thank you Doc.

Will pass your thanks to Hugh.