New research on sea ice

[Keith at Tregenna]

"In this warming world, some parts of the planet are warming much faster than others. The warming is causing large ice bodies to start to melt and move rapidly, in some cases sliding into the ocean.

This movement is the topic of a very new scientific study that was just published in the journal Earth and Planetary Science Letters. The Arctic is warming much faster than other parts of the planet and the ice there is showing the signs of rapid warming. This fact has serious consequences. First, melting ice can cause sea levels to rise and inundate coastal areas – it also makes storms like hurricanes and typhoons more destructive. Melting ice also causes a feedback loop, which can cause more future warming and then more ice loss.

It should be noted that there are different types of ice. Some ice floats on water and is called sea ice. When it melts, the ocean water level hardly budges because the ice is already in the sea displacing liquid water."...


Please Note: The above explanation of sea ice gives an answer to melting ice cubes in gin and tonic not raising the water level. The ice cubes are displacing the water, just in a different form and when they melt onto water it is just occupying the same space as the ice cube. It's land ice melting and entering the oceans, they do not displace they add to ocean levels. Further, ocean levels are not one even level all over the globe, they are variable, caused by prevailing weather, currents, tidal flow, land elevation, etc..


..."Other ice is on land and may be a large ice sheet or a smaller glacier. These ice bodies sit atop the land and “rest” there. In some cases, they extend out off the land and into the ocean where they partly float on liquid water. When this land ice melts, the liquid flows into the oceans and can cause significant ocean level rising

So, the importance of ice depends on what type it is, where it is located, and how fast it is melting."...

Yours, Rodney, the lonely canary in the coalmines.

For the complete article click on...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/to...cid=spartandhp

Thanks Rodney, certainly both interesting and food for thought.

Keith.

[happy daze john in oz]

Political items such as this will always raise eyebrows, before Al Gore very little was heard of it all.


Millions of years ago Ireland was in the tropics, volcanoes continue to spew out Co2 and other gasses and have done so for millions, if not billions of years.
The increase in population, animals to feed us all emitting Co2 and adding to the problem if such exists.


In the 70's we were told a new ice age was upon us, still waiting for it.


Oh well back to the Gin and Tonic, with plenty of ice please bar man.

[j.sabourn]

I think when Al Gore failed in his presidential aspirations he had to have another motive to fulfil his obvious desires to be seen on the world stage. I don’t think it would have been too hard a job to recruit him to be the figurehead of the flagship of others aspirations in the business world and other society’s wishing to make big issues of the so called climate change. It has from the start to the present time and is still running , a good example of an excellent strategy run with military precision to attempt to hoodwink the world population in general , and there are still a majority of the worlds population falling for basic meteorological mis representations of the worlds weather systems. And people talk about advanced university education as a necessity for the futiure. They should first go and learn the basics of ordinary education first. JS

[Rodney Mills]

Captain Kong re #3.

This year the B.A.S. are abandoning ship as the ice is melting .

British Antarctic Survey abandons polar base as worrying ...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...tish-antarctic...

Scientists at the British Antarctic Survey are abandoning their research station for the first time ever this winter after a new worrying crack developed in the ice sheet. The renowned Halley VI …



Sarah Knapton, Science Editor
16 January 2017 • 6:09pm
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Scientists at the British Antarctic Survey are abandoning their research station for the first time ever this winter after a new worrying crack developed in the ice sheet.
The renowned Halley VI ice base, from which the hole in the ozone layer was first detected, was already scheduled to be relocated 14 miles across the Brunt Ice Shelf because of an encroaching fissure in the ice.
But a new crack has been steadily growing to the north of the base, and computer modelling suggests that it could cause a large iceberg to calve away from the sheet, which could destabalise the area.
Although the British Antarctic Survey (BAS) says nobody is immediate danger, they cannot be sure that conditions would not worsen during the difficult conditions of the southern polar winter when an evacuation would be impossible.

Melt-rate of West Antarctic Ice Sheet highly sensitive to changes in ocean temperatures

Date:
August 13, 2018
Source:
British Antarctic Survey
Summary:
Melting of ice shelves in West Antarctica speeds up and slows down in response to changes in deep ocean temperature, and is far more variable than previously thought, according to new research.
During eight Antarctic summers from 2000-2016 an international team of scientists from the UK, US and South Korea, observed changes in ocean temperature, salinity and currents near the Dotson Ice Shelf -- an area of floating ice over three times the size of Greater London and seven times the size of New York City.
Lead author, Professor Adrian Jenkins, an oceanographer at British Antarctic Survey, says:

"We sampled a whole cycle of cold-warm-cold in the ocean, and saw melt rates of Dotson Ice Shelf climb dramatically and then fall back. In future it will be critical to understand the duration and severity of the extremes in seawater temperature, whatever the cause, because we now see how quickly the glaciers respond to them."
The research was carried out by an international team from British Antarctic Survey, Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University, the Korea Polar Research Institute, the University of Inha (Korea) and the Institute of Arctic and Alpine Research at the University of Colorado. The work was supported by the UK Natural Environment Research Council, the US National Science Foundation and the Korea Polar Research Institute.


Antarctic Ice is Melting Because of a Phenomenon Not Seen ...
https://www.newsweek.com/antarctic-i...ing-phenomenon...

A seal swims by icebergs off the British Antarctic Survey's Rothera base, January 23, 2009. ... the melting of more ice in the Antarctic. ... promote further upwelling and melting. More research …

Melt-rate of West Antarctic Ice Sheet highly sensitive to ...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0813113500.htm

The research was carried out by an international team from British Antarctic Survey, Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University, the Korea Polar Research Institute, the University of …
British Antarctic Survey abandons polar base as worrying ...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...tish-antarctic...

Scientists at the British Antarctic Survey are abandoning their research station for the first time ever this winter after a new worrying crack developed in the ice sheet. The renowned Halley VI …

British Antarctic Survey abandons polar base as worrying ...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...tish-antarctic...

Scientists at the British Antarctic Survey are abandoning their research station for the first time ever this winter after a new worrying crack developed in the ice sheet. The renowned Halley VI …

The canary in the coalmine to all flat-earthers.

[Rodney Mills]

John P. re #2

John I will try and answer your question re. jungles once in the Northern Hemisphere. I searched the Internet on this subject and could not any info., however I did find information on Antarctica.

The information was found in a study of deep sea cores around a bay in Antarctica. It seems around 52 million years ago there were trees and foliage growing on the coast. Evidence showed an intense warming phase suddenly occurred and carbon dioxide levels doubled (1000 ppm) from today's levels (390 ppm) the same hold true for the two other 'greenhouse effect gasses' methane and nitrous oxide, these three are causing rapid ice melt as water and air temperatures rose and ice at the lower levels disappeared. The rapid raise in carbon dioxide has been attributed to multi eruptions of undersea volcanoes; no evidence though had been found as yet to qualify this as the cause. A raise from pre-industrial revolutionary time of 220ppm to 390ppm is what is causing both the ice to melt.

I know volcanoes belt out a tremendous amount of CO2, but this is a natural occurrence and volcanoes have always been erupting, our burning of fissile fuels are adding to what has always occurred. The last time the CO2 was 390 there were no humans on earth.

I'm not suggesting that we should all go back and live in a cave, I am suggesting that if I'm right and sensible changes such as wind, sun, tidal and yet be determined alternative power systems and gradually end our reliance on fossils fuels, eliminating non biodegradable products like plastics etc. is the way to go. If I'm wrong what have you ls lost? However if flat-earthars say no! lets continue with non biodegradable products and fissile fuels etc., as global warming is a load of boll%$ks and they are wrong, what have our grand kids inherited?Perhaps their descendants can visit the new jungles that would spring up again.


Cheers, Rodney

[Keith at Tregenna]

Thanks Rodney.

your posts are always informative, well researched
thought provoking, valued and welcomed.

Keith.

[happy daze john in oz]

Rodders, as always you post some thought provoking and at times dubious, not your fault, subjects.

Back in the 80's we had the threat of Ozone layer holes opening so the use of CFC was banner. It was latyer discovered that the opening and closing of the hole in the southern hemisphere was a natural occurance.

Methane, produced by any animal or vegetable matter that decomposes, population of earth now almost double that of 1980, along with similar increase in livestock all of which produce Co2!

Clean coal powered power stations now producing nothing but hot air.
Cola washed and burned at a very high temperature, coal burns cleaner the higher the temperature, exhaust goes through scrubbers similar to air cleaner in a car, so all that comes out of the chimney is hot air, very similar to your congress and our parliament.

[Rodney Mills]

Johno.

You raised three points mate plus a further point which claims "so all that comes out of the chimney is hot air,"

Ozone hole: I can find nor reference claiming that the ozone hole is a "natural occurance"

"Scientists have discovered "The first fingerprints of healing" of the ozone layer, according to an article published in the journal science.

"Scientists from MIT and elsewhere found that the ozone hole has shrunk by more than four million kilometers since 2000.

To give you an idea, that is about half the size of the contiguous united states.
In the 1980's the hole in the ozone was discovered and the cause was determined to be atmospheric chlorine originating from chlorofluorocarbons - of CFC's.

The chemicals were found in hairspray, drycleaning compounds and old refrigerators, to name a few.
In 1987 almost every country signed on to the Montreal Protocol in an effort to ban the use of CFC's as a way to repair the ozone.

Lead author of the study, Susan Solomon says we can now "Be confident that the things we've done have put the planet on a path to heal."

Volcanic eruptions have been found to slow the healing process, but Solomon believes that barring future volcanic eruptions, the ozone hole should continue to shrink and eventually close permanently by mid-century."

Methane and live stock:

"World-wide, there are about 1.5 billion cows and bulls. All ruminants (animals which regurgitates food and re-chews it) on the world emit about two billion metric tons of CO2-equivalents per year. In addition, clearing of tropical forests and rain forests to get more grazing land and farm land is responsible for an extra 2.8 billion metric tons of CO2 emission per year!

According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations (FAO) agriculture is responsible for 18% of the total release of greenhouse gases world-wide (this is more than the whole transportation sector). Cattle-breeding is taking a major factor for these greenhouse gas emissions according to FAO. Says Henning Steinfeld, Chief of FAO's Livestock Information and Policy Branch and senior author of the report: "Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to today's most serious environmental problems.

The most important conclusion for ourselves is: Eat much less meat and dairy products. This is one of the most effective ways to reduce our personal carbon footprint and to generally reduce our personal negative impact on the environment."

I certainly agree, assuming you do and like me are doing a part to help.

We eat red meat about once a month. Our diet is mainly fish, poultry and non-meat items. We now and again get the urge for a cheeseburger pig-out, my wife makes a great one , that's the limit of our red-::meat.

Clean coal:
"There is no precise definition of clean coal. The coal industry’s main lobbying group claims the term was coined by Congress in the 1980s. It has since been popularized by the energy industry to describe a whole range of technologies,

coal washing, removes unwanted minerals by mixing crushed coal with a liquid and allowing the impurities to separate and settle.
Other systems control the coal burn to minimize emissions of sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides and particulates. Wet scrubbers, or flue gas desulfurization systems, remove sulfur dioxide, a major cause of acid rain, by spraying flue gas with limestone and water.

Does it work?

So far, not well. Clean coal technology has not been widely deployed at a large scale in the U.S., and many clean coal projects have ended in failure. There are also ongoing debates about whether several common deployments of the technology actually reduce overall emissions.

That said, there are a handful of projects coming online that look like they might be not only technologically successful but also financially viable, and many experts continue to say that ‘clean coal’ is a critical part of fighting climate change.

Will clean coal ever work?

Experts from places like the International Energy Agency, Oxford University and the Clean Air Task Force say it must. Globally, coal is typically the cheapest, most readily available fuel—especially in developing countries—and coal consumption is expected to rise 18 percent by 2040. Without carbon capture, burning all that coal will likely blow through the 2 degree warming threshold agreed in the the Paris Climate Agreement.

Renewable energy costs are dropping, and at least one recent study suggests the U.S. could reach 80 percent renewable energy by 2030 without substantial cost increases. But accomplishing that in the U.S. would require a Herculean political effort, and would face huge challenges in other countries as well.

So, in summary, clean coal does not have a great track record of success. Getting to a place where it is cost-effective and deployable on a large-scale appears to be a ways off. But it’s probably too early to label it a false prophecy. There are some promising projects out there and money is continuing to pour into clean coal research, especially in China.

Your statement re coal plants expelling hot air:

"How clean are Australia’s ‘clean coal’ power stations?"

"What’s that you say? Australia has ‘clean coal power stations’?"

"Well, it depends how you define ‘clean coal’. Most power sector observers eschew the phrase because frankly it’s misleading. No technology exists that allows coal to be used without adding carbon pollution to the atmosphere — however the Australian Government and the Australian coal sector use the term ‘clean coal’ to refer to two technologies:

High Efficiency, Low Emissions (HELE) coal plants — ie. those using supercritical, ultra-supercritical and ‘advanced ultra-supercritical’ technology.

Carbon Capture and Storage/Sequestration (CCS) — ie. various technologies to capture a plant’s CO2 emissions and store it permanently underground.

There are no CCS power stations in Australia. In fact there are (generously) only three in the world, and given the massive costs and time required to build,

However we do have four HELE power stations in Australia, all are in Queensland and burn black coal with super-critical steam technology:

Therefore Australian power stations fitted with ‘Clean Coal’ technology emit 9.95% less pollution than stations burning the same fuel with regular sub-critical technology"

For the full article on Oz coal burning: https://reneweconomy.com.au/clean-au...tations-14224/

I guess we must just agree to disagree on some subjects Johno.

I'll repeat what I've said before: If I'm wrong what have our great-grandchildren lost? But what if you are wrong, then what then have our grandchildren lost?

Cheers, and hanging it up on this thread, Rodders

[Keith at Tregenna]

I'll repeat what I've said before: If I'm wrong what have our great-grandchildren lost? But what if you are wrong, then what then have our grandchildren lost?

As said in #16.

Your posts are always informative, well researched
thought provoking, valued and welcomed.

Keith.

[Captain Kong]

I HAVE JUST READ THE REPORT AGAIN,IT IS ON GOOGLE..............

My computer is off so I am on a borrowed lap top,
.
Dated March 2, 2018, end of Antarctic summer. Report from BAS, Their ship RRS JAMES CLARK ROSS, had to abandon its journey to the Larson C Ice Shelf due to the ice being 5 metres or 16 feet thick, they covered 5 miles in 24 hours. so will try again next summer.
The ice shelf is 150 metres thick.


So what is the Truth.????
I was there in the Antarctic on an expedition in 2009, The BAS Team told me ice was getting thicker and temperatures getting colder, It was at times when I was there down to 70c below.
But one side of Antarctica is colder than the other.
Brian