Quite true John, have a friend who conjures up at least 600 gallons per annum, have seen the rat thrown in, but then again I don't drink cider so it doesn't affect me. At the tasting party I must be the only one drinking wine. He has an old fashioned Press which he renovated, it's a huge thing and the base must be be around 8 foot square. First a layer of straw, then a layer of apples, then a further three layers of the same, then the screw down process begins, with a lot of us on handles like the old fashioned capstans and the fluid begins oozing out. Do this quite a few times. Other farmers take the left over straw/apple mash for their cattle feed.