Horrific Motorway Crash

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Originally Posted by JacynWade

Very well put, Roger and Gulliver. I couldn't agree more. All too often news reporters say things like, "weather was a factor". Please!!! Having a license to drive is a privilege, not a right, and as such is to be taken very seriously. Speed, following too closely and distracted drivers are the causes of collisions (like you, Roger, I loathe the word 'accident'). If one knows how to drive properly, there is no excuse for a collision, no matter what the weather conditions.

Yes, I do feel sad for the families who lost loved ones; however, every accident is preventable. Some people will never learn this.

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Unfortunately Jaycyn, no matter how competent a driver you are there is nothing you can do to prevent someone ploughing into the back of you when you are stationery and have nowhere to go in front of you. Have been driving on motorways for a great many years and no matter how well prepared you are there is always that occasion when something looms in front of you. Black smoke at night on the motorway is difficult to detect, one minute you are in the clear next minute you are blind, no matter how quick your reactions if something is hidden in that black smoke you are going to plough into it, with fog you get an inkling that things are changing and adjust your driving accordingly. If someone throws a brick wall in front of you that you cannot see, then an "incident" is going to occur even when driving at the correct speed for what were the "apparent" prevailing conditions.

Regretfully some drivers do not put on their hazard lights when coming to a full stop or when stopped in adverse visibility conditions, some car manufacturers (unfortunately still at the high end price bracket) have a system where emergency braking automatically activates the hazard lights, hopefully this will become a standard feature on all vehicles in the not too distant future.


Whilst these tragic incidents do occur they are thankfully still very rare on our motorway system at the level of this recent tragedy. Our thoughts are with those directly and indirectly involved, our hearts go out to them.

Hi Ivan,

You describe a perfectly reasonable scenario for a collision in which the 1st vehicle (which I will call Veh.1) is required to make an emergency stop due to unforeseen circumstances. The 2nd vehicle (Veh.2), which is following behind, then ploughs into the rear of Veh.1. Contrary to what you or others may think, the collision in this instance has been caused by driver error. Certainly the sudden presence of smoke, fog or other phenomena such as you describe may well be the catalyst for any ensuing collision, but the reason a collision occurs is simply because Veh.2 is travelling too closely behind Veh.1 and/or being driven at excessive speed. Is it not reasonable to assume that when the driver of Veh.1 applied his brakes, it would have activated his brake lights so alerting the driver of Veh.2. Conversely, if the driver of Veh.1 had insufficient time to apply his brakes then, surely, the sudden disappearance of his tail lights should serve as a warning to any driver following behind, who, if competent could then act accordingly to stop or avoid collision. Of course there are incidents which are purely accidental. These may include collisions resulting from sudden mechanical failure, straying livestock, falling trees or masonry, goods or other objects falling from other vehicles, sudden road subsidence, etc, but, sometimes, even in these circumstances a driver might still be deemed negligent. In general terms I must agree with Jacyn - most collisions (or 'accidents', if you prefer) are preventable.

Ivan, you must know that I have the utmost respect for your judgement, but on this it seems we must disagree. I cannot speak for Davey (Gulliver) or Jacyn, but I think the point we were all trying to make was simply this......as drivers of motor vehicles we really need to be giving greater thought to how we drive our cars, including our 'attitude' to other road users. When we learn to drive and finally pass the all important driving test we are understandably pleased with ourselves. From that point onward, many of us forget about 'driver discipline' and lapse into poor driving habits and technique. Unfortunately, too many people lose sight of the fact that, when driving a motor vehicle, they have charge of a lethal weapon.

In this modern world there are an ever-increasing number of vehicles on our roads and it is imperative that we maintain a high degree of safety awareness, not only for our own sake, but for the safety of our passengers or others with whom we share the road. Hopefully, in the not too distant future, driver training institutions will realise the need to stress the importance of correct driver 'attitude' as well as all the other skills required to make a good and competent driver. Until we accept accountability and responsibility for our own actions when driving a motor vehicle (as we should in every day life), reducing the death toll will be most difficult. There use to be a saying here in Oz, that the cause of most 'accidents' is the 'nut behind the wheel'. Ivan, mate, believe me, it's true.

.....regards, Roger

Spot on about the nut Roger. I was taught to drive by a police driving instructor and I still remember some of the advice, such as check your rear view mirror every seven seconds and you speedo, that was before cruise control. Also keep a clear distance between you nad the car in front. Sadly no matter how hard you try to do that as soon as you leave a reasonable distance some clown will dive in there. Not sure about UK now but our 'P' plate drivers are some of the worst. they get a licence, some I think from a corn flake packet, and think they are a reincarnation of Stirling Moss. Highest death rate on the rods here is among the under 30's. The older drivers have less acidents even though there has from time to time been a push to get them off the roads.Excuse me for being cynical, but does experience come into the equation at any point?

Hi Roger

I don't disagree with what you say and I certainly bow to your superior experience in these matters and my comments were made as a layman without the experience of incidents you have witnessed and probably sorted out.

I do know that the driving test here, when they take it, seems to be a question of can they press the right pedals at the right time to avoid crunching the gears, it would seem that roadcraft does not come into it.

When I speak to youngsters they have not been taught about changing road conditions for changing seasons, snow, rain, leaves on the road, few are aware that the much flaunted ABS is nearly ineffective in Autumn when driving on fallen leaves. Having being brought up in the snowy north you learn different tactics for different conditions, here in the deep south especially Torquay which is built on seven hills (no it's not like Rome) when it snows (infrequently) they drive as they do in summer, the bodyshops rub their hands in glee. Using reflections in shop windows ahead to see what you cannot see directly, they have never heard of, or using shop windows as a parking aid, there are so many things that are lacking in the Driving Instructors instructions in passing on tips for safer driving.

My brother was an advanced driving instructor for cars and motorcycles he despairs at what he sees sometimes.

Roger I don't disagree with what you say, you have seen more than I ever want to see

Ivan

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Originally Posted by TonyMorcom

It seems that the police are determined to blame someone. The eye witness highlighted in my earlier post was on the news last night and he says that it was definitely fog. There is a river passing under the motorway in that vicinity and I've seen early morning fog banks at that point. I did wonder whether may be it was a stray rocket that had come down, hit a vehicle and startled the driver. Maybe we will never know. Frighteningwhat ever and just goes to prove you never know when your time is up!

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You cannot sue Fog though.

Hi John (Happy Daze),

Could not agree with you more, mate, about some of the young 'P' platers in Oz. I firmly believe that it all comes back to the 'attitude' I mentioned in my previous post. A large majority of our 'P' platers are in the 17 - 21 age bracket. Some of them are barely through that transitional period in their lives, from child to man, when they obtain a licence to drive a motor vehicle, which they regard as tangible evidence of their independence. To use their own common parlance, many of them have 'attitude', but sadly, it is an 'attitude' not conducive to the safe driving of a motor vehicle. Unfortunately, the attitude of which I speak is borne of aggression (most common among males, but inclusive of some females). Once seated behind the wheel of a motor vehicle, that aggression becomes the overbearing factor in their attitude whilst driving and in many cases accounts for their total lack of consideration for other motorists. They have a tendency to treat most roads as part of a Formula 1 racing circuit. It is unfortunate, but although they possess reflexes far quicker than our own, that aggression I refer to coupled with an under-developed 'road sense' or lack of experience, leads to the demise of so many Aussie youngsters long before their time. They die amongst the twisted wreckage of high-powered cars they were never able to handle with safety. I imagine that a similar situation exists in the U.K., Europe, the U.S., Canada and N.Z. It's total lunacy, and it's so d--mn sad. The aftermath of this unnecessary waste of human life can be heartbreaking.

John, you wonder whether experience enters the equation with regard to road safety. As a general rule I think it does. Recently on another thread concerning 'buses' I became aware that we have quite a few shipmates who, after leaving the sea, became involved in the transport industry, not only as busmen like Davey and Mike(Hall), but as lorry drivers like our mate, Alf. Although much older now, these men were/are 'professional drivers' in the fullest sense of the word and although their reflexes may not be quite as fast as they once were, they would still possess a high level of safety awareness and skill accrued over many years of professional driving. They would never admit it, but some of them, like me, may even have acquired a minor 'bad habit' that they wish they didn't have, but as a passenger I'm sure I could trust them with my life;) It goes without saying that eventually we reach a stage in life when we are considered no longer able to drive. Invariably this is due to deafness, impaired sight or infirmity, but rarely because of a deliberate disregard of Motor Traffic laws. Generally, John, I've found that when driving, the more experienced you are the better off you are.

I have often thought that the way a person drives can tell you something about the nature of that person. Fanciful I know, but occasionally I've found it to be an interesting concept.

........................regards, Roger.

Roger, you captured my point exactly. My husband, among other things, is/was a truck (lorry) driver/instructor and taught me to drive one as well. As he says, and I quite agree, obtaining a driver's license is a privilege, not a right, which is sadly abused by many. Other than catastrophic circumstances, there really is no excuse for one driver to plough into another. It is indeed driver error, following too closely and at an excessive speed.

Recent story in Florida: Miami cop caught speeding by police officer. Reason? He was late for his off-duty job! Florida Cop Arrests Miami Police Officer For Speeding 120 MPH - YouTube

I was on the M40 that night just North of Oxford , around dusk , the traffic was heavy . there was a White Ford Transit sat less than ten feet off my rear bumper . I was fifty feet off the car in front . The transit flashed at me so I would move . the traffic stream was moving at 55 miles per hour . In the central lane the cars were gapped about thirty feet apart . The van shot across the lane in front of a car past me and into the fifty foot safety gap I had left . Cars don't kill stupidity does !. I have not been in the Friday night scramble out of London for several years and the driving standards and manners on the A38 , M40 , A34 and M1 were appalling . A lot of contractors going home for the weekend , a lot of weekend away drivers , but most of all a few suicidal idiots . They all had British Plates too . The Foreign Truck drivers have a huge disadvantage of a massive blind spot alongside the trailer that is just not visible from a left hand drive cab . British HGV drivers have the same but on the nearside , much to the amazement of cyclists who get hit whilst undertaking a slow HGV .

You are quite right about the so called weekend drivers. Also there are many drivers who would normally only drive in the daytime and when you suddenly put them on a dark motorway they are an accident waiting to happen.A driver who normally drives 5 miles or so to and from work everyday in the rush hour probably thinks he is an expert. Put him on a motorway with traffic doing all sorts of strange things at ridiculous speeds and again he or she is an accident waiting to happen. The other factor that no one has pointed out is that this particular accident happened very near a junction and we've all experienced horrors at them.

With regards to the Police needing a scapegoat how do they know it wasn't something simple like a blowout on one of the vehicles or an animal running across the motorway? There are so many factors that could account for it I feel it is a pity to blame the organisers of the bonfire so early on in their investigation.

Tony, mate,

Forgive me if I seem a tad oversensitive about this (which I probably am), but I'm puzzled by your repeated suggestions that the investigating Police need to find a 'scapegoat' for this tragedy. That they will endeavour to carry out a thorough investigation, I have no doubt. Regardless of whoever else warrants a report of the incident, most importantly, they will be required to furnish a full and accurate report to the Coroner pending an inquest. From my own experience, most competent Coroners are intelligent persons and although hear-say evidence is permissible in an inquest, they will not be easily swayed by ill-conceived speculation or supposition.

What are the likely causes of this horrific collision ?, it's too early to say. While it gives me no pleasure to say this, I've yet to hear a counter view to my own assertion that the overriding factor in this chain reaction of horror will be 'driver error'. In the absence of any oil or similar substance on the surface of the road which might account for what occurred, I can't help but conclude that if the drivers involved had been exercising 'defensive' driving techniques, there would have been little or no injuries. If ever a place existed where 'defensive driving' would be to the benefit of all motorists it must surely be a motorway or expressway where high-speed is the norm. Sadly, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, thus far, I'm inclined to the view that the fault for this collision lies with 'human error' - but we shall see.

.......Roger