The great reset

[vic mcclymont]

James, there many reasons for the demise of UK shipbuilding. I will respond in full later today.
Vic

[vic mcclymont]

After the end of WW2 there was an explosion of shipbuilding orders, the UK yards took advantage of the situation for a great number of years.
Meanwhile foreign yards that had been decimated commenced modernisation.
In the mid fifties Scotts' Shipbuilding and Engineering Co. Ltd., of Greenock and Lithgows Limited, Port Glasgow commenced ambitious of of their own accord. Both yards were modernised by 1960 and employed up to date shipbuilding methods.
Greenock Dockyard commenced its own modernisation plana the works were completed early sixties.
In 1965 Court Line acquired the Appledore Shipbuilders in Deon and moved the yard to a green field site, which when completed was the firs under cover shipbuilding yard in Europe.
Court Line set them themelves on an ambitious takeover plan of UK shipyards, when these yards were completed the were the most modern of any yard anywhere.
In the mid sixties the Wilson Labour Government commissioned the Geddes Report to look into UK Shipbuilding.
The report conclude that yards based on a River should combine to form a single entity, which would in theory give them more financial muscle when dealing with suppliers.
The Lower Clyde Yards wanted nothing to do with the militant Upper Clyde Shipyards and Yarrows, wanted nothing to do with the Upper Clyde yards also. The response to the Lower Clyde yards was do what you want.
The only good thing about the report was that it recommended a Shipbuilding Industry fund be setup on which yards could draw funds for modernisation programmes.
Scotts' and Lithgows combined to form Scott Lithgow and became reasonably successful.
UCS was declared Bankrupt, and Tony Benn refused funds to help the stricken yards. Court Line approached Benn and offered to but the yards and spend money on them and bring them up to date as they had down South. Benn flatly refused.
Scott Lithgow applied for funds from the SIB to help the develop a new super yard in P.G. the funds were promised for the early seventies.
Meanwhile a new Tory Government was in power and Rolls Royce was declared insolvement a bit of a dilemma, the new Government could not save Rolls Royce and ignore the Glasgow shipyards. Solution save R.R. and divert the funds from Scott Lithgow to to UCS.
Now we have all heard of the great Jimmy Reid, the saviour of UCS, but it was and is ilk that were ginst any modernisation of the Glasgow Shipyards.
In 1977, the Labour Government nationalised all of the major shipyards with the exception of Harland & Wolff, Belfast.
The first thing Labour did was call the shipyard trade unions and demanded an increase in output of 20% with no corresponding increase in wages, this was agreed. Labour also wanted to abolish over 120 Union restrictive practices, the Unions refused.
It wasn't till 1984 that they agreed to drop them when it as to Late.
British Shipbuilders, in my opinion was a disaster, a board of Directors initially set up London with local directors at each shipyard. It wasn't before to long that they decide that this setup wasn't working an the whole lot moved to Newcastle.
Any decision required in the process of building a ship had to be referred to Newcastle for them to review and announce their decision.
Shipowners that had favourite shipyards found that their orders were diverted to any yard within the B.S. Group
When the Tory Government privatised the yards it was in the middle of shipping slump.
Why did the shipyards fail after privatisation.? A combination of many factors:- Lack of orders, EU intervention forcing a reduction of 10% of UK yard and forcing some yards into one area of specialisation which was not over abundant with orders.
UK Shipyards could complete with any shipyards World Wide on quality and price, where the could not compete was on finance.
Court Line sought tender prices for the construction of a new bulker, a Japanese shipyard, won the order, when asked why they didn't place it with a UK yard? They replied, that the UK Shipyards were competitive on prices but could not compete on the financial incentives offered by the Japanese.
On quality a number of shipowners both here and abroad had their preferred shipyard, if quality was so bad, do you honestly believe that these owners, would return if the UK quality was bad.
As you can see from the above James, there is great misconception that UK yards were lagging behind there overs seas competitors in terms of modernisation and building methods.
In one aspect you are correct, Court Line and Scott Lithgow combined in the late sixties to show the South Koreans how to build a ship.
The deal was that Scott Lithgow would build two tankers with Korean personnel on hand during the build. AP a division of Court Line would design and oversea the construction of a brand new factory shipyard in South Korea.
It is sad that Shipbuilding is a minority industry in the UK, Political Parties on both sides and the Trade Unions, and latterly assisted with the EU to allow a once great Industry to Slip into oblivion.

[John Cassels]

Nic e post but has little to do with the threat that the WEF poses on our future lives and welfare .

[James Curry]

Thanks Vic, a lot I agree with but concerning build quailty & design UK yards were still building out dated vessels. Main Engine designs were dated and lacked power the likes of Doxford still turning out opposed piston engines from basically a 1920's design. I likes Doxfords but they were labour intensive.
As you say H&W did survive but lived of political hand outs for years. Hopefully they can grow with the recent orders placed by the MOD.

[vic mcclymont]

James, Court Line when they took over Droxford they invested in the 'J' type engine.
Vic

[James Curry]

Yes Vic but the J type was just an updated LB,P, type. Only version of a Doxford I never sailed on was the Sea Horse and not sure if that engine ever went into production. Doxfords were a nice smooth running engine but compared to Sulzer & B&W they got left behind.
Bank line depending which yard built them had either Doxfords or H&W B&W engines.
I don't think I ever sailed on a Doxford that had more than 6 cylinders.

[Tony Taylor]

Yes Vic but the J type was just an updated LB,P, type. Only version of a Doxford I never sailed on was the Sea Horse and not sure if that engine ever went into production. Doxfords were a nice smooth running engine but compared to Sulzer & B&W they got left behind.
Bank line depending which yard built them had either Doxfords or H&W B&W engines.
I don't think I ever sailed on a Doxford that had more than 6 cylinders.

I recall in the early 70s while at Shields, some of the motor men going on a visit to Doxfords to view some trials on the Seahorse; they all came back saying how great it was but unfortunately was never put in production due to lack of cash and the government at the time refusing a few million to finalise development.

[James Curry]

I think the last Doxfords built were 3 cylinder engines , If memory serves they may have been fitted to a couple of Ellerman city boats. City of Cantebury. There was something odd about the method to get them to go astern ?

[happy daze john in oz]

From what I can see the Italian ship building industry is doing very well.
Most are built by Fincantari according to the well sited plates on all the ships they build.
Many of the new cruise ships are all built by them, must be doing a good job I would think.

But so many good UK companies are now long gone to overseas companies.
RR is now German owned I am informed, Land Rover/Jaguar by TATA the Indian company.
MG went to China, and many more along with them.

But one for those who wish the house of Lords gone.
If the incoming gov does get rid of it, what replaces it.?
A house of elected representatives, yes maybe.
But the UK could end up with a USA style where money decided who is in the upper house.
Those with the money and the power will be able to ensure they or their sponsored person wins.
Money talks so many languages, so there are times when the Devil you know is the best option.

[James Curry]

Tata still build cars in the UK Land Rover Freelander & Land Rover Evoc , Range Rover. Not all Jaguars are built in the UK. The E Space although British design is built in Austria, reason the UK plants are at full capacity and could not take on the build of the E Space. TATA have invested heavily in the Halwood plant on Merseyside currently has a work force of over 3000. So not all doom and gloom.

Concerning companies and unions making political donations to one party or another. Time it was capped to level the playing field up. Labour party membership is nearly 500,000, Conservative membership is 172,000.