Red Duster

[Capt Bill Davies]

Brian/John,

Ref your posts above. I seem to remember there was one or two Masters in the China that used to fly this flag and then it was the sole preserve of the Master.

To extend things a little. Do you both not think that the demeaning of the Red Ensign to FOC status makes somewhat of a mockery to these men who are now flying the Blue Ensign.
I am sure these Masters have all the best will in the world and we are thankful for their efforts when we need them. But just stop and think of what the Blue Ensign is in the wake of.

Brgds

Bill

[j.sabourn]

Bill, I think the red ensign is a flag for history. It should never be forgotten, but personally when working in latter years it didnt really matter to me what flag you sailed under, usually there was no flag there in any case as no one seemed to bother putting one up, unless you went to a port where they wanted to be officious about it. One time lying at the Eastern anchorage in Singapore there was a japanese (cadet ship I assume ) close by, it was a privilege to see the way the flags went up every morning and came down at night, bells rung in the morning at 0800 hours. Brought back memories. Every ship in the anchorage if they had a flag up just left it up all night. As you say in one of your posts, the japanese are still strong on tradition. The Americans still stick I think to a few of the old ways insisting that a US citizen is master and Ch. engineer, when this disappeared from British ships I dont know. I had to get special permission to sail under their flag, which I thought was the correct thing to do in anycase. However times change not always for the better. What annoys me is the idiots in The Euro. insisting that the Euro flag fly over Westminster, which is a meaningless flag for an idiotic bunch of worthless Eurocrats, if they wanted to sue me for saying such, they wouldnt get much as have nothing worth suing for. Anyhow we are supposed to be a Democratic people and can say what we believe in. Cheers John Sabourn.

[Capt Bill Davies]

I believe the Japanese had a sail training ship and a general cargo (conventional) training ship. The NYK cadets were referred to midshipmen (touch of the BF or some would say BS here). The Japanese were very Naval like and it was difficult to ever penetrate that bamboo screen. Socialising was restricted to a beer following the evening meal. Ten minutes max and that was it . No bars, no drinking in each others cabins. Walking around the ship was akin , I suspect, to walking around a monastery. However, I have said it before that in my opinion they were the finest natural seamen I ever had the good fortune to sail with. Problems were addressed in a very cool manner and I was invariably told about them by the Chief or Mate after the problems was sorted and always in a 'matter of fact' sort of way. I miss those days.

Bill

[happy daze john in oz]

Brian/John,

Ref your posts above. I seem to remember there was one or two Masters in the China that used to fly this flag and then it was the sole preserve of the Master.

To extend things a little. Do you both not think that the demeaning of the Red Ensign to FOC status makes somewhat of a mockery to these men who are now flying the Blue Ensign.
I am sure these Masters have all the best will in the world and we are thankful for their efforts when we need them. But just stop and think of what the Blue Ensign is in the wake of.

Brgds

Bill

A valid point Bill, but is this sometimes a case of vanity on behalf of the skipper, or is it that they have not considered the total concept of it all?
In your opinion, what do you consider to be the requiremenst in todays conditions for the Red Ensign still to be flown on a ship? Is it still the right of a British born captain to have the choice to fly it, or is there some other reason?

[Capt Bill Davies]

Two points here John.

I would say there is an element of vanity in any individual flying the Blue Ensign but then I have a dislike for anything ostentatious so I am not giving a totally unbiased view. I stopped wearing a uniform in 1967!

The requirements to own a British ship and fly the Red Ensign which prevailed in the 50s/60s are no longer with us. The requirements now allows any person or ‘body corporate’ to own a British ship. Any half decent Lawyer can sort the BOS element. You will recall when this Tonnage Tax took hold a former CEO of the MCA landed a good job with a Korean Shipping Company. There was a Storey there somewhere.
Again, the British born (white on other posts) Master was never a requirement. As long as he was domiciled in the UK all was well. The critical thing in the system of old as you remember it is the Beneficial Ownership (BOS). It had to be BRITISH. Now the owner and crew may never have seen the skies over UK. As long as the have the British Cadet all is well.......except for the cadet of course. The Cadet will have left one of our colleges lectured by someone who is not always a nautical person as you and I would see it and then gains his seagoing experience as the 'only round eye on board'. Why am I thinking of the 'blind leading the blind'



Brgds

Bill

[j.sabourn]

I am probably wrong in this so maybe shot down in flames. Most MN uniforms as such were not legally uniforms as such, but classed as company livery. I dont know the legal aspects of such but the MN cap badge bears the Crown. Most Company livery did not. Braid the regulation MN was gold bands with a diamond, most companys braid was different. I was told years ago that the diamond represented certificated rank, however you get skippers on pleasure boats sporting this. Maybe someone can clarify all this, not that it is considered important but just for curiosity. Regards John Sabourn

[Captain Kong]

In ESSO we were issued with Grey trousers and grey shirts, looked like fugitives from Alcatraz, with the relevent epaulets.
also white boiler suits and safety boots, helmets, goggles, gloves and heavy coats if in the North Sea Trade.
Cheers
Brian.

[Capt Bill Davies]

I am probably wrong in this so maybe shot down in flames. Most MN uniforms as such were not legally uniforms as such, but classed as company livery. I dont know the legal aspects of such but the MN cap badge bears the Crown. Most Company livery did not. Braid the regulation MN was gold bands with a diamond, most companys braid was different. I was told years ago that the diamond represented certificated rank, however you get skippers on pleasure boats sporting this. Maybe someone can clarify all this, not that it is considered important but just for curiosity. Regards John Sabourn

When I was in British general cargo tramps and Ore Carriers we invariably carried Un-certificated Third Mate who braid was such that the upper part of the diamond was removed which seems to give support to premise.
I use to prefer the loop rather than the diamond but that was probably me wanting to be different. On many of the ships the jacket only was the only acknowledgement with most wearing grey flannel trousers.
When I joined NBC I asked Brenda Silver about the attire expected and she advised Khaki shirt and matching trousers and 'Do not wear insignia of any description as if Mr Ludwig hears of it you will be off in a flash' .

Brgds

Bill

[Ivan Cloherty]

I am probably wrong in this so maybe shot down in flames. Most MN uniforms as such were not legally uniforms as such, but classed as company livery. I dont know the legal aspects of such but the MN cap badge bears the Crown. Most Company livery did not. Braid the regulation MN was gold bands with a diamond, most companys braid was different. I was told years ago that the diamond represented certificated rank, however you get skippers on pleasure boats sporting this. Maybe someone can clarify all this, not that it is considered important but just for curiosity. Regards John Sabourn

During WWII you could be jailed for wearing a MN Officers uniform, if you were not in the MN (or presumably also not an officer). What todays situation is I don't know

[robpage]

The diamond back in the far off past signified a certifciate , Clan line and BP to the best of my knowlkedge were the only ones to have a Royal Naval curl to denote certification , which urban legend said was granted in regard of the huge tonnages lost in the war