Red Duster

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Originally Posted by len mazza

That sounds a a bit odd John,surely the ensign of the country of registration is the one flown.

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Normaly that is the case, but if the ships captain is British, that is a British born citizen who no doubt has done his time in the British MN and now captaisn a cruise ship, then he is entitled to fly the Red Duster.

I asked the question on my last cruise as the ship was registered in Hamilton. It was the Purser,white English born and the Master at arms, also white British who told me of this ruling. As they were both White British with some 40 years at sea between them I had no reason to doubt them. I met the skipper, began his days at sea in the early 60's as a JOs with P&O.

Cunard are the only company still top use the term Master at Arms, all others call them security officers. That from the MaA who had done some 15 years with Cunard before transfering to Princess LIne.

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Originally Posted by happy daze john in oz

Normaly that is the case, but if the ships captain is British, that is a British born citizen who no doubt has done his time in the British MN and now captaisn a cruise ship, then he is entitled to fly the Red Duster.

I asked the question on my last cruise as the ship was registered in Hamilton. It was the Purser,white English born and the Master at arms, also white British who told me of this ruling. As they were both White British with some 40 years at sea between them I had no reason to doubt them. I met the skipper, began his days at sea in the early 60's as a JOs with P&O.

Cunard are the only company still top use the term Master at Arms, all others call them security officers. That from the MaA who had done some 15 years with Cunard before transfering to Princess LIne.

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And you believe all that?

Bill

From the MCA website

The Red Ensign Group is comprised of the United Kingdom, UK Crown Dependencies (Isle of Man, Guernsey and Jersey) and UK Overseas Territories (Anguilla, Bermuda, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, St Helena and the Turks & Caicos Islands) who operate shipping registers.

Any vessel registered in the UK, Crown Dependency or UK Overseas Territory, is a “British ship” and is entitled to fly the Red Ensign flag.

The 1995 Merchant Shipping Act provides for British possessions to be categorised according to the tonnage, size and type of vessel which can be registered. Under the Merchant Shipping (Categorisation of Registries of Relevant British Possessions) (Amendment) Order 2008 (Statutory Instrument 2008 No. 1243), these registers are divided into the following categories.

Find out more about the Red Ensign Group and the different registers at the REG website: www.redensigngroup.org
Find out more about the REG Passenger Yacht Code

So according to the MCA if a ship is registered in Bermuda it can fly the red Ensign , which would cover the Cunard ships . On reading up on this there have been some exceptions , during World War II Danish ships registered in the UK with Danish Masters and Crew were exempt from flying the Red Ensign and flew the Danish Flag instead .

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Originally Posted by Capt Bill Davies

And you believe all that?

Bill

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Having seen the flag flying I asked the question as to why. I have no reason to doubt the replies I recieved. I thiunk the reply by Rob tells it to be the fact.

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Originally Posted by happy daze john in oz

Having seen the flag flying I asked the question as to why. I have no reason to doubt the replies I recieved. I thiunk the reply by Rob tells it to be the fact.

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John,

There are two things here.

Be assured that the ehnicity of the Master will entitle him to nothing.
I would have thought the Master was the one to approach rather that quoting the Purser or, Master at Arms who just might be labouring over his understanding ISPS code. I met one at Star Ferry HK last year and grilled him and found him wanting to say the least.

Further 'according to the MCA'???? Are these not the people who turned your beloved Red Ensign into the FOC and mess it is in today???

Try not to view the Red Ensign through 'rose tinted' glasses because what you and I remember in the 50 & 60s is not there today. IT'S GONE!!!!.....forever.

Enjoy the memories

Brgds

Bill

I only quoted the MCA as It was my understanding that they were still the regulatory body for maritime matters in the United Kingdom . i was not aware that this had been changed . That is why I took their interpretation of the act . If this has been changed who is now the Authority in these matters ?

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Originally Posted by robpage

I only quoted the MCA as It was my understanding that they were still the regulatory body for maritime matters in the United Kingdom . i was not aware that this had been changed . That is why I took their interpretation of the act . If this has been changed who is now the Authority in these matters ?

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Rob,

The MCA are the authority, I was merely stating that they are the ones responsible for 'selling out' the flag. If you look at the documents required to register a ship under the British flag since the Tonnage Tax came into play the doc has morphed into something suspiciously like the doc required to register under Liberia.
Whilst I have no issues whatsoever about FOC, I was there 37 years, I do have issues with the hypocrisy of the MCA. On one hand they want all the benefits of FOC and on the other hand they like to give the impression it is the same as what it was when it was our National Maritime flag and not above firing a broadside at FOC when the chance arises.

Brgds

Bill

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Capt Bill Davies

John,

There are two things here.

Be assured that the ehnicity of the Master will entitle him to nothing.
I would have thought the Master was the one to approach rather that quoting the Purser or, Master at Arms who just might be labouring over his understanding ISPS code. I met one at Star Ferry HK last year and grilled him and found him wanting to say the least.

Further 'according to the MCA'???? Are these not the people who turned your beloved Red Ensign into the FOC and mess it is in today???

Try not to view the Red Ensign through 'rose tinted' glasses because what you and I remember in the 50 & 60s is not there today. IT'S GONE!!!!.....forever.

Enjoy the memories

Brgds

Bill

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Bill, the very reason I raised the matter with the Purser, only officer around at the time, was that I was amazed to see the flag flying. More so as the ship was registered in Hamilton. I had seen a similar situation on a P&O cruise ship here in Oz but she was still egistered in London. I have no disillusions regarding the flag but as I say surprized to see it on that ship.
But having mat him I can assure you the skipper was white English as could be, and a bit of a gent with it.
I will be back on that ship in late June, geiven half a chance I will speak with a more senior officer and try to find out more.

I sailed on Queen Elizabeth in January,across to Sydney.
The ship is niow registered in Hamilton but she was flying the Blue Ensign, the Master , Chris Wells is a Commander in the RNR ,

It used to be that not only the master but a percentage of the crew had to be RNR or RNVR. These laws have all been bastardized over the years to suit. I worked on a ship run by the M.O.D. and managed from HMS Vernon for a number of years. We flew another bastardized version of the blue ensign with the usual different insignia in the corner like the Bermuda and Gibralter flags referred to. Ours must have been authorized by the Admiralty as we carried naval crew also. However there were none of us (merchant seamen) RNR or RNVR. I think the old laws as we knew them re. flags no longer exists. John Sabourn.