That flag

[happy daze john in oz]

In a previous posting there was a lot talked about the decline of the Red Duster and the fact that Cunard were to re-register the Queens in the Bahamas so as to be able to do weddings on board.
Over the new year period I was on one of those floating hotels having a great time. I noticed that in every port of call the Red Duster flew from the bridge and the stern, a Red Duster with no additional logo as is often the case. I considered this a little odd given the ship was registered in Hamilton.

In a bar one evening just prior to dinner I was able to speak with the chief purser, a gentle Scot with some 40 years sea time. I ask him the question as to why, I had considered it may have been a result of having a British skipper, captain Philip Pickford who began his sea career in 1967 with P&O. The purser then went on to explain.

There are now three major cruise companies operating around the world, Carnival who own Cunard, Princess, P&O Carnival and a couple of other smaller companies.
Royal Caribbean who own Celebrity Cruise and a couple of other smaller ones.
A Norwegian company who own Holland America as well as a number of other companies.

Princess and Royal Caribbean are the two largest and the two biggest competitors. Australia, New Zealand and Tasmania have between them almost 27 million and as far as the shipping companies are concerned are an untapped market as such. For this reason Cunard will have one of the Queens operating out of Sydney for four months next year. Royal Caribbean will now have a ship here all year. The companies see Oz as a hub for the Asia Pacific region and believe other travelers from China, Japan etc will fly to Oz to take advantage of the cruises on offer.

But to the flag, the main point of interest.Cunard now have completed the change of registration, gone is the 'Southampton' on the stern now replaced with Nassau. Yes it is to enable the company to enact weddings aboard, a facility estimated to be worth about 15 million Us a year to Cunard. But on many ships now registered in foreign countries the Red Duster will still fly.
Two reasons. Firstly any shipping company quoted on both the New York and London stock exchanges will be allowed to continue flying the flag. This means Cunard, Princess and P&O will continue to fly it. Second is of concern mainly to Cunard. Way back in the days of White Star a Royal Charter was given to the company to carry the Royal Mail. This charter has never been rescinded and Cunard will continue to fly the flag as they are still of the opinion that the heritage of the company is paramount and must be preserved.

As to Cunard and their crews, when the new Queens began it was the wish of the company to use only British crew in the dinning areas, a desire to carry on a tradition. This has now however been changed. They found it increasingly hard to find sufficient crew of a suitable standard and there was also a reluctance by them to work up to 14 hours per day even though the rate of pay was as set by the British standard. There was also a desire by many of the bloods aboard to have a more mixed crew, as a result there is, as is the case on all cruise ships, a mixed crew in the dinning areas.

The attempt by the EU to make British ships give up the Red Duster was more of a rumor than fact, the flag it appears still has a sound and secure future.

[j.sabourn]

Ref. your very informative post on Change of Flag. Maybe I have always been working under a mishaprehension, but I always thought that marriages at sea were always legal if conducted by the appropriate minister of whatever religion. Does this mean these ships will now be carrying Clergymen and Holy men of all faiths now. Cheerrs John Sabourn]

[Captain Kong]

Hi John,
I think it is about British Law that when the Vicar says "Does anyone know of any reason why these two people should not marry" anyone can object if they have any info on them,. This would not happen if they eloped on a ship. for example one of them could still be married to someone else.
The ships of Cunard do carry RC Priests and CoE Vicars.When I have been on QE2 several times they always have a "Renewing of Vows Ceremony" where married couples go and re new their vows with the relevent Vicar or Priest. But I have never seen a wedding at sea or any demand at the time of someone wanting to do that.I cannot see the demand being that great. it is bad enough ashore getting married without ruining a good cruise doing it.
Cheers
Brian

---------- Post added at 09:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:11 AM ----------

I will be sailing on Queen Elizabeth on the 4th of Feb from San Francisco to Sydney, I will count how many weddings they have to see if the Register change is justified.
I booked the trip 16 months ago in the belief that I was supporting British Shipping, now they have pulled that from under me. If I wanted to sale `foreign flag` I would have had a bigger choice of ships and destinations.
.
On the old Queen Mary, in Long Beach, they have a wedding Chapel on the Prom Deck, Port side. I will be there again in three weeks and every time I go there is always a wedding or two. That is always popular.
Cheers
Brian.

[j.sabourn]

Hi maybe they will get around to divorces also. What about Gay marriages what sort of legality will these hold. I still cant see that the excuse for changing the flag is based on such flimsy excuses. I am Sure they could have come up with a better and more honest one. Cheers John Sabourn.

[Keith Tindell]

Hi Shipmates,
The reason for the change of flag is the old age one of MONEY, its the only reason for most things in life, or maybe i am just a sceptic . You only have to ask someone in the know how much this move saves, not generates. Keith tindell

[Captain Kong]

Hi John maybe they will have `GAY` marriages on board. They have "GAY" only cruises.
I joined the QE2 on her last world cruise, the table waitress , who is a local girl to me. told me that the previous cruise was homsexual only. and all the crew were sworn to secrecy. No one was allowed to know about it. She told me because she knew me.
I didnt enjoy my cabin after that thinking about what might have gone on in my bed and bathroom. UGH! Spit!.

---------- Post added at 11:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 AM ----------

Keith is right , the money is not in the Weddings, it is in the Tax evasion.

[Colin Hawken]

Not just tax evasion. Apparently the change of registration means they are no longer subject to British labour laws. Without this I wonder about the welfare of their Crews. We all know Shipowners are B**%%@*s. Always have been and always will be.

[Capt Bill Davies]

Two points I would offer.

Post 1. John, this is nothing more than dual registration and pacifies certain elements who find FOC distasteful. But make no mistake the ships you are talking about are flying a FOC. Do not be fooled by the exhibition of a flag that both you and I and the stream of members who have thanked you for the post (never seen so many) hold dear. I would say that the actions of these operators demean the flag even more so.

Previous post. Colin, I think your post is far too sweeping/generic and one should not label all owners the same and certainly not by flag association. I worked for several shipowners in my time who became personal friends and were extremely nice people. I would add that none of the owners I am referring to were British or owned British ships but they did operate very fine ships to an extremely high standard.

Brgds

Bill

[Colin Hawken]

Apologies,I stand corrected.You are quite right of course

[Keith Tindell]

I am not sure of my facts here but if the cunard ships needed an armed response mid Atlantic for example, as happened before, who foots the bill?,serious crime on board, who,s law would be upheld?. i have a feeling what the answer will be, even though it seems the taxes will not be paid as before!!!, ah well just a thought, Keith Tindell