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Thread: Death of a naval hero.

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    Default Death of a naval hero.

    Flags are at half mast today across the USA, except for the White House flag, honoring the memory of John Macain, but aides to Trump recommended the flag be flown at half mast, however Trump vetoed the request, sending a terse tweet of condolences to the McCain family.

    John McCain was the son and grandson of US naval Admirals. He graduated from West Point Naval Academy then trained as a carrier pilot and was assigned to a carrier ground attack, bomber squadron, in Viet Nam. He flew 23 missions over Viet Nam, culminating in being shot down over Hanoi. In ejecting he suffered two broken arms, a wrist and rib injuries. He used his teeth to activate his inflator jacket as he landed in a lake outside Hanoi. He was captured by Vietnamese farmers, beaten with, sticks, tools and bayonets.

    He was severely tortured for extended periods. When it was discovered he was the son of an active admiral he was offered release. The Vietnamese wishing to use this as a propaganda vehicle. McCain refused, insisting he would only take his sequential turn, not any early release.

    He was a P.O.W for almost six years, two of which was in solitary confinement for 'extreme disobedience.' He suffered extended turns of torture, every two hours for days, until he finally broke. He later said " Everyman has a limit to torture and I had mine." He fought against torture for any reason." Just recently he voted against Trump's nominee for head of the CIA as she headed up the department that carried out "water-boarding" under President G.W. Bush. He suffered life time injuries from being hung by his arms and never could raise his arms above his shoulders and sustained a permanent limp.

    He was awarded the Naval Commendation Medal for assisting a pilot to escape from a burning plane caused by the detonation of a bomb on the carriers deck and the Bronze Star for valor in flights over Viet Nam.

    He was a two term congressman and a five term senator for the state of Arizona. He unsuccessfully ran for president twice.

    As I have previously stated, I was Republican and voted so for forty odd years until the extreme right took control. The last Republican I voted for was John McCain, in South Carolina's primary election, in his failed 2000 presidential bid. Because of the take over of the Tea Party, he swung to the extreme right and chose that dipsh#@ Sarah Palin as his running mate.

    Trump, during a speech while campaigning for president said about John McCain "...He was a hero because he got captured. I like people who weren't captured."

    This from someone who got five deferments from the draft.


    McCain and his family had requested that President Trump not attend his funeral.

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    A man well known here in Oz and well respected by all.

    Sadly we are seeing less and less of men of such conviction, a true hero who served his country well putting it before his own self interest.
    Happy daze John in Oz.

    Life is too short to blend in.

    John Strange R737787
    World Traveller

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    Rodney like our own MN bravery seen easy to forget by governments ?jp

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    I cannot share your sentiments in calling John McCain a hero although as with all recently passed I say rest in peace.
    There is no doubt McCain was a brave man who suffered badly after being captured but dropping bombs laden with agent orange and napalm also thousands of cluster bombs onto civilian men , women and children to my mind is not heroic. "We are going to bomb them back into the stone age".
    While McCain was fighting his war from the air troops on the ground were going about their deadly business of wiping out whole villages , calling the people "gooks" made them less than human and easier to kill.
    There have been a great many American hero's in the past , men and women , as there will be in the future. America leads the world in so many ways , think of the scientists , medical research experts , inventors , the technology of the space programs etc. Unfortunately they have all been overshadowed by war. Viet Nam , Afghanistan , Iraq , Libya , Syria , none of which have been won. Billions upon billions of dollars down the drain , military graveyards extended. While the Americans keep electing presidents such as Nixon , Bush and Trump mistakes of history will never be learned.

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    louis said this before on the site after every war parties from both all sides have to sit around a table and talk? why cant they talk before a shot is fired? while we may think trump is a fool he is talking to the people most likely to war against America and if his plan works he is saving lives and economies of countries including his own? jp

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    Agree with that John let us hope he can achieve peace through talking and prove us all wrong.

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    Re # 4.
    By not mentioning it, Louis has emphasized why the Korean War is known as the Forgotten War. Almost 100,000 British personnel fought in this war and I would add, most of them were National Servicemen. More than 1,000 British lives were lost in this no winners conflict.
    In my opinion the US air crews who dropped the two Atomic bombs on Japan were heroes, as the two bombs they dropped forced the Japs to surrender quickly and end World War Two.

    Regards from,
    Fouro.

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    Louis #4
    While I do not agree with you on your assessment of the Life of John McCain I respect your right to disagree and thank you for your post.

    My rebuttal:

    I was firmly against the war in Viet Nam. It was morally wrong in my opinion. I was here in the United States at that time and dreaded the thought of being drafted. I just missed it by a year, time and time again. The draft topped out at 26, I was 27, then by being a parent of a child, then it was upped by age, being over thirty missed again, then over thirty-six. I was always slightly above the grade for conscription, but didn't know it at the time and spent some worrying years. I couldn't vocally object to the war or the draft as I wasn't a citizen most of the war time. Funny, I was born with a bum left eye, no amount of eye-glass power could correct it, I only have peripheral vision in my left eye. I never considered myself visually handicapped. It wasn't until recently that it dawned on me that I couldn't have been drafted with the impaired vision I have. Fortunately for me, I had a lazy doctor giving me my medical for the M.N.. He told me to pick up a card and hold it over my eye, then the other one and read the chart. I cheated. I peeked, and passed the vision test.

    I was writing about John McCain's life and his beliefs and actions only, and not the morality of the Viet Nam war..

    The quotation you used as an example is attributed to General Curtis LeMay USAF WW11: Not Lt. Cmd. McCain.

    "And we would shove them back into the Stone Age with Air power or Naval power—not with ground forces. Mission With LeMay: My Story (1965), p. 565. In an interview two years after the publication of this book, General LeMay said, "I never said we should bomb them back to the Stone Age
    .
    McCain was a carrier based Navy pilot, with 23 missions over Hanoi. Cluster bombs were not used against Hanoi. The majority was used against Laos. Not only an immoral war, but an illegal one too.

    Though he actively dropped bombs on Hanoi, though he was tortured, held in solitary for two years, imprisoned for six years. He personally fought against the people who wanted to promote the antipathy between the peoples of the USA and Viet Nam. Today, our countries are trading partners.

    The former head of the prison publicly commended McCain as a great man and a worthy antagonist. There is a memorial in Hanoi listing those pilots that were captured. Flowers, flags, cigarettes, and money have been left by people of Viet Nam as tributes to him. There was a line up at the doors to the US Embassy to sign a book of remembrance to McCain.

    If you want to direct your comment to the US Government at that time, so be it, but not the armed forces. The Army, Navy, Marines, Airforce are not democracies. Orders are passed down from president, prime minister, chancellor, shah, whatever through generals, officers, n.c.o to grunts in the field or ship to carry out these orders...a chain of command.

    I do not know McCain's position on cluster bombs, but I feel sure if ordered to, he would obey.

    Many on this site I'm sure had disagreements with orders from the upper deck. "No shore leave granted in New York, boys." This after you have broke your ass loading stores, and an hour ponsing yourself up in the head, ready to rush ashore and give 'em' hell. Neither if the shipping company sent a bulletin that no more overtime is to be paid. Did we go slow, or sit down or show any sign of refusal to accept?. We grumbled, yes, but we still steered the ship, spliced a rope, cleaned a boiler, cooked and served meals on time. We more than likely just paid-off and changed shipping companies. A ship wasn't a democracy, neither was the 'old man', at best you could say it was a benign dictatorship.

    Neither pilots, torpedo men, or gunners or 2nd asst cooks like me got to choose their targets, weapons, or menus.

    I firmly agree with his former prison guard and torturer-in-chief, "He was a great man."

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    Just a thought after reading Rodney's article above-
    I wonder how many members on this site dreaded being called up for National Service to serve in HMAF?

    Regards from,
    Fouro.

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    Wouldn’t have worried me Fouro, but there again I wanted to join the RN at 15. Still have my registration card issued by the BSF saying I was exempt from National Service. As regards the American Senator. There were many Like him during the Vietnam war, the real heroes were the ones who didn’t come back, you. Could call them the reluctant heroes who probably had plenty to live for. When the media want to build someone up to superman status I always switch off, superman like Santa Clause does not exist , the senator was a man doing his duty the same as most, and was one of the lucky ones to come through it all in one piece physically if not mentally. He should be judged on what he attained in life as a man , which will be the way his wife and family will remember him. Newspaper accounts always have that built in error. JWS. Maybe as recent other post could call it the error of collination where the telescope is not parallel to the plane of the instrument. ( sextant) . So not to be too unkind to the media maybe better to refer to them as suffering frequently from collination. Maybe save a little of their lost dignity also. JWS
    Last edited by j.sabourn; 29th August 2018 at 12:54 AM.

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