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Thread: Death of a naval hero.

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    Lous, i think most would agree that Vietnam was a vicious war, but i also think that pretty much all military and naval personnel when instructed to fight believe they are fighting a just war , even the basic German troops etc thought they were fighting a just war at the time, the same with us in Iraq , and other places, its part of the set up, politicians feed all with the information before hand, and make us believe that what they are doing is right and just, just my thought, kt
    R689823

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fouro View Post
    Re # 4.
    By not mentioning it, Louis has emphasized why the Korean War is known as the Forgotten War. Almost 100,000 British personnel fought in this war and I would add, most of them were National Servicemen. More than 1,000 British lives were lost in this no winners conflict.
    In my opinion the US air crews who dropped the two Atomic bombs on Japan were heroes, as the two bombs they dropped forced the Japs to surrender quickly and end World War Two.

    Regards from,
    Fouro.
    Louis,
    I'm surprised you didn't have any comments to make about this article.

    Regards from,
    Fouro.

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    like Iraq a good excuse to try out the latest weaponry plus the black stuff{oil} must come into it somewhere ? jp

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    #22 The Korean began in 1950 I was 3 years of age. I do not have sufficient knowledge of this war or the history leading up to it to comment. I have read history books on this war but one person's facts are another person's fiction. It is far better to leave it to someone , perhaps you , to give their thoughts.


    As to the Atomic bombs dropped on Japan which reduced untold number of civilians to ash , you will not be surprised that I completely disagree with you.

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    Louis the fly # 24 and your response to #22.



    The Invasion of Japan vs the atomic bomb.

    The final battle plan for the invasion of two Japanese mainland islands was to be a two part invasion. The first part involved 14 combat divisions attacking a heavily fortified Kyaushu on Nov. 1, 1945.

    This was to be followed up by an invasion on the main island of Honshu by 22 divisions of combat troops on Mar. 1, 1946.

    This was to be an entirely US operation with naval support from the British Pacific Fleet.

    It was projected that more than 1.5 million U.S. combat troops and 3 million in support.

    It was projected that there would be 250.000 U.S. casualties or wounded on Kyaushu alone.

    The culture of the Japanese then was much different then than today. The Emperor was viewed as a living god and a direct descendant of the sun-god and it was expected that the Japanese, men, woman, and children would die in battle rather than allow their Emperor/god to be shamed. This and a strong army of battle hardened troops awaited the anticipated main-land invasion.

    Were it 250.000, plus an unidentified number taking mainland Honshu, British casualties forecasted as the cost of invasion, and you were Supreme-Commander of attacking British forces, would you choose the casualties or the two atomic bombs? Just curious?

    www.kilroywashere.org/006-Pages/Invasion.html
    Last edited by Rodney Mills; 30th August 2018 at 03:36 PM.

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  8. #26
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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    Louis, there are some who do not agree with you, that is their right, but I will defend your right to express you thoughts.

    A couple of years ago we went to Vietnam and saw some of the tunnels and weapons used by the Viet Cong.

    But we also viewed a piece of documentary film from then.
    Until that point I had always considered the war to be just between North and south.

    This doco made me realize the war was between Russia and USA using Vietnam as the battle ground.
    As to J. McCain, he like many others went either as a volunteer or as a conscript, but he fought for what he considered at the time to be the correct thing to do.


    He put his life on the line for what he believed in, and later in life as a senator fought again for what he considered to be best for the nation.
    Not afraid to speak his mind but willing to meet with the people he represented to best fend for them.


    Maybe if we had a few more like him the world might just be a better place.
    Happy daze John in Oz.

    Life is too short to blend in.

    John Strange R737787
    World Traveller

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    Wars in my lifetime have given us new terms to describe actions taking place and methods used.

    Collateral damage = The killing of civilians. Extraordinary rendition = Kidnapping. Enhanced interrogation = Torture. Blue on Blue = Killing servicemen fighting on the same side.

    To get back to Rodney's original post on American hero's . A man who did not bomb a man who did not kill. The most recognized face in the world welcomed wherever he went.
    Muhammad Ali refused to be conscripted , refused to go halfway round the world to kill people. A brave man in and out of the boxing ring. He was willing to stand by his principles even if he had to serve a prison sentence. Stripped of his world heavyweight belt , his boxing licence revoked at the height of his earning power. He came back to reclaim his belt , his honour and principles intact. A man of peace who earned his living by fighting. The greatest boxer in the world who could have been the greatest ambassador in the world. An American hero.

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    For John in Oz we all have our opinions and at our age our opinions will not change.

    I do not want to write more about John McCain. If Rodney reads this he may explain the Keating scandal.

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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    Louis, I do not duck a challenge, following is the story of John McCain's involvement in the savings and loan scandal. I am very aware of it as I lived in California at the time and had my savings in one of the branches of this particular savings and loan company (I didn't lose my savings).



    I personally don't think it right that politicians accept donations from wealthy contributors


    What was the 'Keating Five' and was John McCain



    "Best Answer: keating 5- Savings and Loan scandal from the 1980's.
    Keating Five were five United States Senators accused of corruption in 1989, igniting a major political scandal as part of the larger Savings and Loan crisis of the late 1980s and early 1990s and John McCain had been named as one of the 5
    The U.S. Savings and Loan crisis of the 1980s and 1990s was the failure of 747 savings and loan associations (S&Ls) in the United States. The ultimate cost of the crisis is estimated to have totaled around $160.1 billion, about $124.6 billion of which was directly paid for by the U.S. taxpayer. ( gee this sounds familiar)
    The core allegation of the Keating Five affair is that Keating had made contributions of about $1.3 million to various U.S. Senators, and he called on those Senators to help him resist regulators. The regulators backed off, to later disastrous consequences.
    McCain and Keating had become personal friends following their initial contacts in 1981, and McCain was the closest socially to Keating of the five senators. McCain considered Keating a constituent as he lived in Arizona. Between 1982 and 1987, McCain had received $112,000 in political contributions from Keating and his associates. In addition, McCain's wife Cindy McCain and her father Jim Hensley had invested $359,100 in a Keating shopping center in April 1986, a year before McCain met with the regulators.
    McCain, his family, and their baby-sitter had made nine trips at Keating's expense, sometimes aboard Keating's jet. Three of the trips were made during vacations to Keating's opulent Bahamas retreat at Cat Cay. McCain did not pay Keating (in the amount of $13,433) for some of the trips until years after they were taken, when he learned that Keating was in trouble over Lincoln..."




    "...After a lengthy investigation, the Senate Ethics Committee determined in 1991 cleared Senators John Glenn and John McCain of having acting improperly but were criticized for having exercised "poor judgment."


    In 2002 the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act. went into effect and was adjusted in 2014 in McClutchen vs FEC.


    Today. Max. limits an individual may give to a candidate is $33,900.00 adjusted by inflation annually


    Do I think it correct to give unlimited campaign funds, of course not, was John McCain wrong to accept a large campaign contribution and accept free vacation trips? Of course he was. There is always a quid pro quo involved'


    Does his one time foolish mistake negate his courage as a naval hero? Not in my book, that is why I titled this thread "Death of a naval hero."

    P.s. I too thought Mohammad Ali (Cassius Clay formerly) was the greatest. I followed him since he represented the US in the Olympics. I spent many a night sitting in my car,outside my house, listening to his fights. And I supported his position on the Viet Nam war as it was mine too.


    Now Louis, I answered and didn't duck from your reference on "The Keating Five." How about you answering the question I posed to you.

    "Were it 250.000 [killed], plus an [a further] unidentified number, taking mainland Honshu British casualties forecasted as the cost of invasion, and you were Supreme-Commander of the attacking British forces, would you choose the casualties or the two atomic bombs? Just curious."



    I had five paintings of Mohammad Ali hanging for years in my recreation room in Connecticut, I had both a heavy bag and a speed bag and worked out daily to his action paintings and the theme from "Rocky". Sadly they are stored up in our attic, as (a) we down-sized our home and do not have the wall-space. (b) my wife put her small foot down and said. "No way where they hanging on the wall here. (b) trumped (a), excuse the poor pun.
    Last edited by Rodney Mills; 31st August 2018 at 02:58 PM.

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  15. #30
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    Default Re: Death of a naval hero.

    Rodney as I said to John in Oz I did not want to write more on John McCain , the reason , the man has recently died. Because you have failed to mention one important fact in your post I must say more. John McCain was charged with trying to block an investigation into Keatings Savings and Loans , a company he had accepted campaign funds and generous hospitality from.
    Keating was later convicted of offences including fraud.

    On your question , the use of Atomic bombs. While most Japanese cities had been devastated by bombs , both conventual and incendiary , the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki remained untouched. This is surprising as there were military bases and armament buildings on the outskirts of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was an important sea port. Many people believe they remained untouched to test the destructive power of the Atom bomb.

    B52s flew at very high altitude , safe from ground fire , they could have destroyed the military base and the seaport. If Japan had still refused to surrender and end the war an Atom bomb could have been dropped into the Sea of Japan. There would have been many deaths from fallout and radiation but far less than an attack on a city. Even the fanatical Japanese High Command surely would have realised their position was futile and accepted they had no other option but surrender.

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