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N.B. If you are going to be requesting help from one of the forums with finding historical details of a relative
please include as much information as possible to help members assist you. We certainly need full names,
date and place of birth / death where possible plus any other details you have such as discharge book numbers etc.
Please post all questions onto the appropriate forum
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19th October 2012, 08:06 AM
#21
Ben Line information
Callum
Disregard the initials as far as you can and concentrate on the other information. Most information in former days was hand written and any records now will have been transcribed from that handwritten information where-in the scribe may have had peculiaralities in his forming intials. I know my initials often appeared as I.S. and I.F. when in fact they are I.J. only my Discharge book number R611450 enable me to draw Pool pay and my father initials I.I. had the same trouble with his initials and only his Discharge Book R69069 allowed him to draw Pool pay, so go by the initials in his Discharge Book, as they will probably be the most accurate because your name(s) are written in full there-in.
Just a thought, Rgds Ivan
Good luck in your endeavours
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19th October 2012, 08:31 AM
#22
National archives
Been onto these people today and the lady said a similar thing about the initials being copied incorrectly, but
in having what we beleive to be the correct discharge and identity numbers abd his national ins number she
thinks they can tie it to the correct reference for him which will to recover the BT372 (pouch) records and also
the BT382 (ships record) and from there Vernon mentioned about going further which I may do.
The average cost for this is about £60 to £120 which at the moment may need to be put on hold or its a weekend
away down to Surrey to see them. they said they are unable to email the details and only able to do hard copies or
digital copies, or by prior arrangement to vist them.
Just not being 100% sure what information if any these BT records hold, has anyone ever done this to give me an idea
of the information held, don't really want to be spending £100 to get back the information I already have here like
nat ins numbers etc, she did also say there is no guarantee that it will hold records of
which ships he has served on as it was also during the war period and some information could be blacked out?
She did also offer looking at other searchers out there who do this for a living who would be cheaper than them or knowing
someone near to them would be able to visit them and get photocopies etc free of charge as long as they have ID and again
by prior arrangement, so needing to find out now what possible records they hold and/or trying to get copies of birth/death certs
to prove we are related.
This is a mine field isn't it, but unbelievably interesting, even speaking with you guys on here to find out what the terminology all
means, may be back to the drawing board and getting a plan together me thinks....
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19th October 2012, 10:07 AM
#23
Hello Callum,
Yes I live in Stockton in Hartburn. My ex brother-in-law still lives in Roseworth, called Lenny Swainston, big family from that area.
Contents from an individual Seaman's Pouch can be applied for and sent direct to you for about £6.00 depending on the content. The pouches are hit and miss with, but usually contain the individuals photo taken from their ID card.
There is also a copy of his WWII medal card at the link below, which can be downloaded direct to your computer for 3.36
Medal listing of ... | The National Archives
Also the link Vernon gave you for a copy od his CRS10 service file does not cover the war years. The correct file for this is held in BT 382/1224 covering the surnames "Miller Francis to Miller Jeremiah" These files are held in block by surname and would require a visit to Kew, otherwise they would be quite expensive to order.
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Last edited by DeepSea; 19th October 2012 at 10:13 AM.
"Across the seas where the great waves grow, there are no fields for the poppies to grow, but its a place where Seamen sleep, died for their country, for you and for peace" (Billy McGee 2011)
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19th October 2012, 10:12 AM
#24
If you do decide to download his medal file, this is how to interpret the contents.
The medals awarded are indicated by:
1939: 1939-1945 Star
AT: Atlantic Star
AF: Africa Star
PA: Pacific Star
BU: Burma Star
FR: France and Germany Star
WM: War Medal
IT: Italy Star
CL: Clasp
OLE: Oak Leaf
A cross (×) drawn through a symbol indicates the issue of that medal; a circle (O) drawn through a symbol indicates that only the ribbon for that medal has been issued. If a cross and a circle have been used then both a medal and a ribbon have been issued. An R sometimes appears and signifies that an application for that medal was reviewed and refused.
"Across the seas where the great waves grow, there are no fields for the poppies to grow, but its a place where Seamen sleep, died for their country, for you and for peace" (Billy McGee 2011)
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19th October 2012, 10:30 AM
#25
Originally Posted by
Doc Vernon
I am a bit confused on the CRS10 and the CR10 and hoping that Hugh will explain,as i have forgotten
CRS10 refers to the Fifth Register of a seamans service covering 1941-1972, which is what Callum needs to look into. CR10 was one of three individual indexes CR1, CR2 & CR10, which combined to index the Fourth Register covering 1918-1940. All those who served after 1940 had their records transferred to the Fifth Register.
"Across the seas where the great waves grow, there are no fields for the poppies to grow, but its a place where Seamen sleep, died for their country, for you and for peace" (Billy McGee 2011)
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19th October 2012, 01:39 PM
#26
[QUOTE=Callum Miller;105742]Just not being 100% sure what information if any these BT records hold, has anyone ever done this to give me an idea of the information held, don't really want to be spending £100 to get back the information I already have here like nat ins numbers etc, she did also say there is no guarantee that it will hold records of which ships he has served on as it was also during the war period and some information could be blacked out?
She did also offer looking at other searchers out there who do this for a living who would be cheaper than them or knowing someone near to them would be able to visit them and get photocopies etc free of charge as long as they have ID and again by prior arrangement, so needing to find out now what possible records they hold and/or trying to get copies of birth/death certs to prove we are related.QUOTE]
BT382 will detail the following information: Name of seaman, Date and place of birth, Discharge (Seaman’s) book number, Rank, Details of the ships on which he served. These include: Name of ship and official number, date of engagement (Joining ship), Date of discharge (Leaving ship), whether ship was a foreign going of home trade vessel, and records in some cases National Insurance contributions. Details shown in these records are similar to those contained in an individual seaman's discharge book. These files are expensive, not due to the content, but due to the fact they are held in block and the main cost is due to the actual search for the individual file.
You do not need to prove you are related to access these files. The only part they usually block out is the individuals Nat. In. No. in his Seaman's pouch from BT372 if ordering using the archives digital service. As mentioned previous this should cost no more than £6.00 depending on the actual content of the pouch.
Last edited by DeepSea; 19th October 2012 at 01:49 PM.
"Across the seas where the great waves grow, there are no fields for the poppies to grow, but its a place where Seamen sleep, died for their country, for you and for peace" (Billy McGee 2011)
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19th October 2012, 04:32 PM
#27
Deep sea
Many thanks for your help, I've just got in from work and downloaded the file.
R271514 Miller George Wilson (aka dad)
has an x in a circle for the following
1939 / AT / AF / IT / CL
and an x without a circle for WM
Does this mean then he has the following medals somewhere?
The 1939-1945 Star, the Atlantic Star, the Africa Star, the War Medal 1939-1945 and the Italy Star?
So now copying all the posts here to decifer later as not sure what it all means but
getting there, I've printed out this document I've just downloaded with your description
As an added bonus, I got a call from my sister earlier to say she had found a telegram sent to dad when she was born
dated 23 Feb 1949 sent to the SS Benrinnes c/o Ben Line
So thats definately one ship he was one.
Last edited by Callum Miller; 19th October 2012 at 09:36 PM.
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19th October 2012, 07:56 PM
#28
For Billy
Thanks for the update on the CRS10 and CR10 Files Billy!
Much Appreciated!
Cheers
PS I always seem to get confused on the two??
Will have to make a good Mental note now!
Thanks
Apologies to Callum for the wrong info!
But anyway got it going at least!
Cheers
Senior Site Moderator-Member and Friend of this Website
R697530
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20th October 2012, 12:09 PM
#29
Originally Posted by
Callum Miller
....has an x in a circle for the following
1939 / AT / AF / IT / CL and an x without a circle for WM
Does this mean then he has the following medals somewhere?
This would indicate his medals had been awarded and received. You also state CL indicating a Clasp. If it is marked below the AT (Atlantic Star) this means he has the France & Germany Clasp indicating he was involved in the liberation of Europe at some point. If it appears below the AF (Africa Star) this would indicate he took part in "Operation Torch" and the North African Campaign in 1942.
"Across the seas where the great waves grow, there are no fields for the poppies to grow, but its a place where Seamen sleep, died for their country, for you and for peace" (Billy McGee 2011)
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21st October 2012, 10:22 AM
#30
Deep Sea
Thanks for your reply, the CL is marked under the AF
Spoke to my sister and didn't even realise he had a medal, and definately not
really aware he had a few, more curious now as to where these vanished too?
Need to now look into getting access to his records with the National Archives to
see what information if any that shows and realy wanting to find out what ships
he served on/with. We definately know he served on the SS Benrinnes in Feb 1949
as he was sent a telegram to inform him of my eldest sisters birth so one lead there.
Really can't thank you guys enough for all this help and the information I've gained
in only a week on here. Quite amazed
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