Athel Line between the wars

[David Lingard]

Thank you, Hugh, I am so grateful.

The first time of doing something like this is always nerve-wracking. I remember the first time I installed central heating as a DIY project, I learned so much - but then never did it again! Hopefully I'll not need another trip to Kew but next week now seems a lot less daunting. I'll let you know how it goes.

After this I'll be ready to try Canada!

Best wishes,

David

[Ivan Cloherty]

David it is nice to see someone thanking all those who have helped you, believe me it is appreciated by all of us onboard, whether we had direct input or not. You will be surprised that some who seek help, are given it then disappear without a word of thanks. So please be aware your manners and thanks are really appreciated by all.

[David Lingard]

Ivan, I think a forum usually gets what it deserves. I am involved with a few, in some I contribute more than I take and in others, like this one, it's the other way round. This forum is one of the most welcoming and helpful that I've found and I believe that help given should always be acknowledged - but perhaps that a generation thing. I am surprised that some just take help and leave but I'd like to think that they are in the very small minority - don't be discouraged, the majority truly appreciate the help given here.

[David Lingard]

Sitrep. The visit to Kew went almost as planned (Thank you Transport for London!). I found a lot of good material and will need another visit to try to find answers to the questions raised by this one.

My next question needs a MN background because I'm guessing in very unfamiliar territory. Here's the puzzle:

My Gf was Master of the Empire Flint sailing from Birkenhead on 29 April 43 via New York, Philadelphia and New York to Swansea, arriving there on 1 July 43. She sailed from Swansea on 5 July under the command of Egerton G B Martin BUT in the file there is the Crew Agreement signed by Henry Moore, my Gf, the date, 5 July, is in a different hand and ink and the End of Voyage signature is of the wonderfully named Egerton G B Martin.

There is no other sign of my grandfather in either log or CA and I am guessing that he may have been expecting to command the Empire Flint on the voyage of 5 Jul 43 having sailed the previous two and had filled in the first page of the CA in anticipation.

There is no handover of command from HM to EGBM in the log, there is such an entry on another voyage in another vessel and one would certainly expect to see such an entry if there had been a change of command, so I am certain that HM did not sail from Swansea on this vessel. His next voyage appears to be in the Athelprince on 9 Nov 43.

In 1943 he had been a Master for 23 years which I would think is fairly senior. Here's my shot in the dark - did a "newly qualified" Master go to sea with a more experienced captain to offer guidance and support; or was the granting of the Master's Certificate enough and he just "got on with it"?

[Captain Kong]

Empire Flint[edit]

Empire Flint was an 8,129 GRT tanker which was built by Swan, Hunter & Wigham Richardson Ltd, Wallsend. Launched on 29 March 1941 and completed in August 1941. Sold in 1945 to Athel Line Ltd and renamed Athelstane. Operated under the management of United Molasses Co Ltd. Sold in 1952 to Skibs A/S Vaholm and renamed Oakley. Operated under the management of Holmen & Vaboen. Sold in 1959 to H A Moller A/S, operated under the management of T Klaveness, Oslo. Scrapped in February 1962 in Hamburg, West Germany.

[Ivan Cloherty]

Sitrep.
In 1943 he had been a Master for 23 years which I would think is fairly senior. Here's my shot in the dark - did a "newly qualified" Master go to sea with a more experienced captain to offer guidance and support; or was the granting of the Master's Certificate enough and he just "got on with it"?

Doubt that that would have happened David, as the newly qualified Master would have been a very experienced seaman in his own right and would have served many years at sea, many as second in command as chief officer, even as 3/m and 2/m you have sole responsibilty of the vessel for at least 8 out of 24 hours whilst in charge of a watch both in navigating and traffic duties on the vessel you are serving on and responsible Masters leave their juniors 'to it' as they know they need to know how to cope in case of their own demise, even more so in wartime, so unlikely there would have been any double manning under normal circumstances

[David Lingard]

That was my instinctive thought also, but I'm grateful for your confirmation, Ivan, thanks. The faint possibility of this was because his next voyage didn't sail until after this one had docked.

I'm left with my first assumption that he was expecting a third voyage aboard the Empire Flint and was getting ahead with the paperwork. Then, like all good plans, it changed and Captain Martin was given the job. Is there another option that I may have missed do you think?

[Hugh]

Agree with Ivan, David.
We lost a lot of masters when our ships went down and every one was needed to take the next ship out.
Sadly, Egerton Gabriel Baynes Martin OBE, who was a very experienced Master, having also sailed during the Great War, was lost on ATHELVIKING on 14 January 1945. He had previously survived the sinking of ATHELPRINCESS on 23 February 1943.

I agree with your assumption by the way.

Regards
Hugh

[David Lingard]

After some moths occupied with "other things" I've just returned from a visit to Kew with records of the two voyages missing from the WW2 set. I've not yet studied them in detail but each raises a similar question and I hope someone may be able to help. Pages 20 & 21 of the log show the progress of the voyage but one of the ports in each is a mystery to me.

1. Athelduke. She left New York for "Tarafu" (?) which appears to be only one day's sailing time from Havana but I can't work out where iit is.

2. Athelprince. Well this is straightforward until the final entry on 14 Jan 44 which appears to show "Bowling".

Any clues gratefully received. I've tried to make the files as clear as possible within a small file size but if they can't be read clearly just say and I'll post a larger copy. Many thanks for any and all help.

David

Athelprince.jpg

Athelduke.jpg

[Gulliver]

Hello David.With reference to Athelprince-and Bowling.
Bowling is a small port in West Dunbartonshire on the north bank of the Firth of Clyde,between Clydebank and Dunbarton