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Thread: Athel Line between the wars

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Athel Line between the wars

    Hi Peter,

    This will give you an idea of what a CRS 10 looks like and what you can expect to find in them. Some can be a bit messy. Merchant Seamen - general
    They are completely different to CR 10 cards.
    To be honest I have no idea of what the Lloyd's Captains Register looks like as I have not needed to research any captain to that level as yet.

    Like all cunning plans it is fraught with risk, in particular that my wife and sister might take the opportunity to go off shopping!
    I think that is a risk that most of us share

    It's strange because I worked in Greenwich in the 60s and only once went into the museum, but my grandfather was still alive then so why should I? The snag is that he rarely spoke of his Athel years and at the time I thought little of the history which was slipping away.
    Like you I have only been to the NMM once and that was way before I was involved in MN research so unfortunately didn't make the most of my visit because I didn't have a clue what was there. I think most of us fall into the category of not asking our father's and grandfather's about their service. I, like you, have been down that road and sadly wish I had asked more questions of my father while I still had him around. I hope this will help with info about NMM: Research guide C13: The Merchant Navy: Tracing merchant seamen: Sources of information in the National Maritime Museum : The Merchant Navy : Research guides : The Library : Researchers : RMG

    Happy to answer any questions so don't worry about that.

    Regards
    Hugh
    "If Blood was the price
    We had to pay for our freedom
    Then the Merchant Ship Sailors
    Paid it in full”


    www.sscityofcairo.co.uk

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  3. #12
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    Default Re: Athel Line between the wars

    Hello Hugh,
    My niece has been to Kew and sent me photos of the front and rear of the CRS10 which I'm hoping will be shown here (there's a big question mark although the pdf views OK on my PC).

    A few questions spring to mind: what is the column "F or H" and the sub-columns under Character, "A" & "C"?
    I'm trying to transcribe it all but some of the ports are not obvious to me: S'sea, G,Nock, I assume G.Mouth will be Grangemouth.
    Finally, for now ;-) , what does it mean by R/ Athel Line London (and 3 similar entries)?

    The obvious mystery is in the top entry which I understand as leaving Cape Town on 30.12.41 (RS8 ???) and under Date & Place of Discharge an entry 20.7?.42 ... (unreadable) then shipwrecked which is a nice way of putting when you've just been dive bombed. But he was sunk on 9 April 42.

    Any inspiration gratefully received. Thanks and Best wishes,

    David
    Attached Files Attached Files

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  5. #13
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    Default Re: Athel Line between the wars

    Dear Hugh,
    Please disregard my first question, had I followed you previous link before asking, I'd have known what F & H mean.
    David

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    Default Re: Athel Line between the wars

    Hello David,

    As you can see CRS 10s can be quite messy.

    "A" and "C" = Ability & Conduct.
    "VG" = Very Good.
    "NS" = Not Stated.

    The ports were mostly written in short hand - S'sea = Southsea, G,Nock = Greenock, G.Mouth = Grangemouth, C.Town = Capetown.
    R/Athel Line London = Required or Return.
    RS8 is a MN form - don't have anything on that as yet but don't mistake it for a CRS8 which is a MN discharge certificate.
    The Date & Place of Discharge 20.7.42 is when he was disembarked at Dock St, London after being shipwrecked - the term used by clerks of the Board of Trade for a sinking. So without checking the story of the ship, I presume he was repatriated home on another ship which arrived 20.7?.42. CRS3 (form for seamen remaining in the employ of same company).

    Regards
    Hugh
    "If Blood was the price
    We had to pay for our freedom
    Then the Merchant Ship Sailors
    Paid it in full”


    www.sscityofcairo.co.uk

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    Default Re: Athel Line between the wars

    HI David.
    My brother was on the Athel Chief from 31.10.44 to 24.8.45 I thought the Captain's name might have been on the papers I got from Kew but unlike my discharge book there is no mention on any of his discharges, these are from Kew so I think they never recorded same.
    Cheers Des


    redc.gif

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    Default Re: Athel Line between the wars

    Hello Hugh,

    It may be messy but it's filling in a gap and thanks to your comments I'm understanding it better. The dates now make sense and as you suggest he must have been repatriated on another vessel and no time was lost after arriving at Dock St because I have a copy of the report of the sinking by the Shipping Casualties Section dated 21 July 1942.
    Dock St seems a strange title after seeing Cape Town, Falmouth et al was there something special in that street or was it just a part of London Docks at Wapping - why not just say London?
    I'll carry on trying to read it and type it up, now all I have to do is cover the years 1920 - 42 ... )

    Best wishes,

    David

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    Default Re: Athel Line between the wars

    Hello David,

    Not sure why Dock St - I have seen it used on documents many times. Dock St was one of the well known London Pools where seamen would sign on and off ships. Maybe one of the ex- merchant seamen on the site would care to tell you a little more about it.
    A correction to my post #14 the shorthand "S'Sea" refers to Swansea not Southsea sorry.
    You will note the entry next to EMPIRE FLINT - CR2. This CR2 card would normally reside in his seaman's pouch and record his ships prior to 1941 but unfortunately this has not survived. This is not surprising as up to 95,000 pouches were destroyed circa 1969. You can use crew agreements to find out his previous ships though (with a little bit of luck). You can check BT 381/1864 (official number 142729) for the year 1941 and hopefully the crew agreement will list his previous ship.
    Any questions feel free to ask.

    Regards
    Hugh
    Last edited by Hugh; 7th July 2015 at 07:17 PM.
    "If Blood was the price
    We had to pay for our freedom
    Then the Merchant Ship Sailors
    Paid it in full”


    www.sscityofcairo.co.uk

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    Default Re: Athel Line between the wars

    If I recall correctly the notation 'Dock St' was to differentiate it from 'Tilbury' which was also noted as a discharge or signing on port, as both were considered 'London' area. In 50's/60's Tilbury was used mainly by passenger ships too large to enter London's dock systems. May also have had something to do with rail warrants issued when signing on or off, as those signing on or off in Tilbury invariably travelled via London and those instructed by other Pool Offices in the provinces to join a ship in London which was actually in Tilbury and a warrant issued for London would have to find their own way from London to Tilbury and as we all know most of us joined a ship absolutely skint and would not have had the fare from London to Tilbury. Also those joining a ship in Tilbury from the provinces could claim the taxi fare between the London mainline terminals to get the Tilbury train and vice versa when paying off.

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    Default Re: Athel Line between the wars

    Hi Hugh,

    Request in with Kew for the document you linked to - thanks, even if the crew agreement doesn't list his previous ship it will be interesting as it refers to the last voyage of the Athelstane.

    Ivan, Thank you too, to think that a life at sea was what the family had in mind for me, I'm just horrified how little I know about it - how men signed on and off ships, who provided/paid for these travel warrants etc etc. I do understand being absolutely skint in the 60s, I can't remember being otherwise. Is there such a thing any longer as a Trinity House cadetship? (I think that was what it was called).

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    Default Re: Athel Line between the wars

    Quote Originally Posted by David Lingard View Post
    Hi Hugh,

    Is there such a thing any longer as a Trinity House cadetship? (I think that was what it was called).
    Yes it is still going strong but has changed its location and name, it is no longer at Princes Dock side near Posterngate and changed its name from Hull Trinity House Navigation School to Trinity House College, what the address is I don't know, but I have it somewhere, they no longer wear Nelsons Uniform (which we wore with pride), but wear a battle dress blouse and black trousers and are a scruffy looking bunch, with little or no pride in their appearance which is a pity with a school with a proud history stretching back over 600 years. They no longer have school parades or march through the town every Sunday, believe they don't march anywhere at all. They now teach engineering in addition to deck officer requirements and also take pupils who have no intention of going to sea...absolute sacrilege!

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