Heavy Lift vessels

[Doc Vernon]

#7 I am sure Ivan is perfectly aware of what deadweight tonnage is Vernon , it is one of the first things a cargo ship mate learns among many other things . There are other tonnages but most refer to cubic , such as gross and nett , there are others under deck tonnages open or closed shelter deck tonnages , Suez and Panama Canal tonnages etc etc. However to any seaman the deadweight tonnage is what most seaman refer to when talking about ships , when talking about passenger liners and their large gross tonnages means very little to the working seaman. Your description taken from a journal no doubt is quite correct for the layman and all he needs to know but to the mate of a cargo ship is a bit more involved. Ivan with being involved with charter parties and such will have different knowledge of different vessels . Cheers JS
PS if a layman asked me what deadweight tonnage was I would simply say the difference between the load displacement and the light displacement expressed in my time in long tons. This would probably involve further questions on what they were also. Cheers JS

Yes JS That is why i posted my reply as such (I guess you know really Ivan, but in case will this not explain the All Up ! LOL) fully knowing that Ivan was indeed aware of all that , see the smiley!! Dont know why it could not be seen as such?? No harm meant! Geeee!!!
cHEERS

[j.sabourn]

In place of grave read cremated ? Error. Cheers JS.

[Ryan Plut]

YES Doc, I know every description of deadweight tonnage, BUT what I wanted was Mr PLUT'S description of it, now YOU have given him a way out, sometimes I despair!

I had my reasons

Sorry, I haven't been following the site too closely lately, in the midst of buying a house! All I meant by "ALL UP" was weight of cargo and ship loaded down to her Plimsoll marks. Everything included.

[j.sabourn]

That is called the loaded displacement Ryan. Cheers JS

[Ivan Cloherty]

All I meant by "ALL UP" was weight of cargo and ship loaded down to her Plimsoll marks. Everything included.

Hello Ryan, as John said in #14 what you have described is Displacement tonnage, just so that you can glean a little bit more clarification

DWCC (Deadweight cargo capacity) is the amount of cargo only that a vessel can carry

DWT (Deadweight tonnage is the amount of cargo+stores+fuel+freshwater+lube oils+ plus a thing called 'constant

Now 'constant' is a guessology figure, usually pretty accurate, which on a 10,000 DWCC would be about 90/100 tons. this covers an accummulation of wires, ropes, paints, shackles, spare cargo blocks, timber shores and assorted miscellany of goods found in the foc'le and tonnage hatch

Now we come to your 'ALL UP'- a 10,000 DWCC vessel will have a displacement of approx 15,500 tons, the 5500 tons being the weight of the steel used in construction, plus main and auxilliary engines, all deck gear, derricks / cranes fully rigged and a myriad of other essential items, propellors etc. giving a light-displacement (LD)

So DWT + LD = ALL UP

THe only reason I have gone into this is because mis-information in a novel or periodical becomes fact, we seafarers watch so many illustrious marine experts giving out information that is totally inaccurate and shows that they apparently have never stepped aboard a vessel. Then you also get the people who make frequent ferry passages and think they are seamen, there's more to it than that.

We just want you to be right in your facts, and if you're not sure of anything, all aboard this worthy vessel will be only too happy to help

Regards

[Ryan Plut]

Hello Ryan, as John said in #14 what you have described is Displacement tonnage, just so that you can glean a little bit more clarification

DWCC (Deadweight cargo capacity) is the amount of cargo only that a vessel can carry

DWT (Deadweight tonnage is the amount of cargo+stores+fuel+freshwater+lube oils+ plus a thing called 'constant

Now 'constant' is a guessology figure, usually pretty accurate, which on a 10,000 DWCC would be about 90/100 tons. this covers an accummulation of wires, ropes, paints, shackles, spare cargo blocks, timber shores and assorted miscellany of goods found in the foc'le and tonnage hatch

Now we come to your 'ALL UP'- a 10,000 DWCC vessel will have a displacement of approx 15,500 tons, the 5500 tons being the weight of the steel used in construction, plus main and auxilliary engines, all deck gear, derricks / cranes fully rigged and a myriad of other essential items, propellors etc. giving a light-displacement (LD)

So DWT + LD = ALL UP

THe only reason I have gone into this is because mis-information in a novel or periodical becomes fact, we seafarers watch so many illustrious marine experts giving out information that is totally inaccurate and shows that they apparently have never stepped aboard a vessel. Then you also get the people who make frequent ferry passages and think they are seamen, there's more to it than that.

We just want you to be right in your facts, and if you're not sure of anything, all aboard this worthy vessel will be only too happy to help

Regards

Ivan, Thanks for all that exhaustive information. I've never been a member of any navy, civilian or military, though I did spend 3 years in the US army in the 1970s.
Had I included an explanation in the fiction novel to get all the details correct, the passage the conversation occurred in would have bogged right down and the reader rapidly loses interest. Got to keep things moving!
Now, as to the use of the term "all up": in the novel this was spoken by David Stirling, a British army major (real guy!) who admits he knows nothing about ships, and that's why he's trying to recruit a man for a particular mission who's been a MN Captain for one month and whose ship was torped out from under him. I reckoned an army man would be unaware of nautical terms, so would use a term he knows. Here's a cut-and-paste of the passage to illustrate (sorry for the strange formatting). The two are speaking in 1942 Cairo, Egypt:

“Yes, we did. David, is this line of questioning going somewhere? Because if I’m not here to give testimony about the sinking of the Dominion Empress, I’d really prefer to continue my trip to England as soon as possible.”

“We, that is to say, the Special Operations Executive not the SAS, want to offer you the command of a ship.”

“A ship!” he repeated, surprised, sitting up and leaning forwards.

“Yes. We’d like you to take command of the HLV Belfair.” David opened a drawer and brought out a bottle of Dewars White Label and two tumblerglasses. He held one up and raised an eyebrow. Reggie nodded.

“Uh, … you said ‘H.L.V.’? What’s that mean? His Majesty’s something-or-other?” The major poured out a heavy dram and handed it across.

“Heavy Lift Vessel. It’s a sister ship to the HLV Belpareil and HLV Beljeanne. She’s 414 feet long by 68 feet wide and draws 33 feet when loaded. 10,446 dead weight tons, all up. She’s twin screw, has a cruising speed of nine knots and is capable of eleven knots. Built 1926, and equipped with three cranes, each able to lift 100 tons. Interested?”

“Hundred ton cranes? Great Scott!—but, just a moment, you’ve not explained who or what this Special Operations Executive is.” Reggie sat back, took a sip of his dram and waited. The major hesitated, and then spoke with care, his fingers steepled before him.

“The SOE doesn’t exist, officially. We’re responsible for conducting espionage and clandestine raids into enemy territory, and coordinating with the resistance movements of foreign governments. It was formed at Mr Churchill’s personal request. Winston refers to us as his ‘Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare’.” David took a drink and smirked. “You saw the vehicle that brought you here?”

“Yes, a Jeep. I was impressed. I gather it’s American. During the drive here it seemed it could handle anything.” He took another sip.

“I can confirm that, personally.” He winked. Reggie consulted his wristwatch.

“Major Stirling, I’m very interested in your offer to take command of this ship. So, the day is young. Shall we requisition one of these Jeeps and go have a ‘shufti’ at the H.L.V. Belfair?” The major shifted uncomfortably in his seat and said nothing. “Oh, is it not in Alexandria?”

“Actually, it isn’t, but there is a similar ship, the Belray, here in Port Said, although it’s less than half the displacement. We could view that if you wish.”

“I’d rather have a look at the actual ship, if you don’t mind.” Reggie responded.

“Ah, … yes, well …” the major left his reply hanging.

“Oh, I see. You’re trying to tell me it’s too far away to conveniently drive there?”

“You could say that.” The major reddened, embarrassed. “It’s in Yugoslavia.” Reggie’s eyes narrowed.

“You mean, occupied Yugoslavia?”

“True,” said David in confirmation. “On eighteenth April last year the country surrendered unconditionally, and Mussolini and Hitler officially recognized the formation of the Independent State of Croatia. That country is now a German puppet state, yet Italian-governed, but they’re so incompetent the Germans have re-assumed command of the Serbian part of it because of this. The Belfair lies in the Italian-governed portion.

“There are so many political factions in that country it seems things have degenerated into a state of civil war. There are factions of fascist Ustaše led by the ultra-nationalist dictator Ante Pavelić, and the royalist Chetniks led by Brigade General Mihailović, and then a shadowy group known as ‘partisans’, but who knows who is leading them – all we know at the present time is that they’re Communists. But, at the same time they’re all either fighting each other, or collaborating with each other, or the Nazis or the Italians.”

“Sounds confusing.”

“You don’t know the half of it. There are also the mercenary troops of Hungarians or Roumanians, or maybe Bulgarians or Albanians, we’ve really no idea how many factions are involved. But really, all you need do, is go in and bring the ship out. In essence you’ll just be a delivery captain.”

So that's the passage. I goes on for some pages as he explains the mission. In other websites I've actually had people grouse about how I spelled "Roumanians" but that's exactly how they spelt it in 1942.

Cheers,
Ryan

[j.sabourn]

#16 Your book sounds quite readable Ryan and hope it sells well and many get pleasure from same, your account of the Romanians and the spelling of such at the time follows on from the measurements of the time and a fathom is still a fathom , a cable is still a cable, a nautical mile is still a nautical mile, and among many others an an inch is still an inch. Your man from the ministry sounds very plausible and in later life he was well known on merchant ships trading with Russia and only fell out with him once when refused to do some unsavourary task where he called me unpatriotic. Seamen will however like any other profession be quick to point out what they consider errors, it is human nature. Probably goes back to the saying a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. However as long as you get your nautical measurements such as fathoms and knots, cables and the other cables, latitudes and longitudes, she”ll be right mate..Best of luck. Cheers JS

[Ivan Cloherty]

Ivan, Thanks for all that exhaustive information. I've never been a member of any navy, civilian or military, though I did spend 3 years in the US army in the 1970s.
Had I included an explanation in the fiction novel to get all the details correct, etc etc
Ryan

Ryan it wasn't an explanation for your novel it was just to give you an idea of how tonnages are calculated and how misinformation can get carried forward.

Just think of the poor catholic priests who through wrong translation could have led a different life, when the translator wrote 'celibate' instead of 'celebrate'