My Grandfather

[Jayne Jones]

I’ve found out some more information while I am waiting for the records, which might help other people, so I thought I would post it. I tried to find out if there was any connection between Royal Navy personnel and the Merchant Navy and realised that there was as they were involved in protecting and defending the merchant ships and sometimes served on the merchant ships also. I thought I had solved the mystery but when I looked at the National Archive catalogue where Billy’s records have been filed, the description was referring to army, specifically Royal Artillery Service, as well as other roles. This confused me even more so I did some more research to see if there was a connection between the Royal Artillery and the merchant navy and found that gunners from the RA served on merchant navy ships to operate the guns they were fitted with to protect them. Here's a few links for anyone interested:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...f_World_War_II

This was interesting part for me:

wikipedia_merchant navy.jpg

This is the article that says about the connection with the Royal Artillery and the maritime regiment:

https://ra39-45.co.uk/units/maritime-ra

Interestingly, it says they were issued with 'naval kit', which I am assuming might have been uniform as well.

IMG_7539.jpg

I have read that they needed to keep the gunners' presence on the ships as secret as possible so they were listed as part of the crew.

I can't be sure but I am hoping that this might explain the confusion with my grandfather, as I have since found out from my MOD request, prior to my NA's order, that his record is for the army. I will only solve the mystery when I have the records (i hope!), but this may help someone else.

[Jayne Jones]

I forgot to add that records for gunners serving on Merchant Navy ships can be found here, but need a page check and order if a specific person is to be found:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ls/r/C17109000

Also, information about merchant navy men serving on Royal Navy ships can be found here:

https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk...ond-world-war/

and searched here:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...tails/r/C15951

I hope this helps someone, like you have helped me.

[Doc Vernon]

Hello Jayne
Although all above very good info, for many here and others that may look in, yes i have all the Links in my collection as you may have guessed!
But as asaid Jayne really good and important info. you post for many who like you want to search for Family of past!
Thank you for taking the time to investigate and Post these Links!
Cheers

[Jayne Jones]

Hello Jayne
Although all above very good info, for many here and others that may look in, yes i have all the Links in my collection as you may have guessed!
But as asaid Jayne really good and important info. you post for many who like you want to search for Family of past!
Thank you for taking the time to investigate and Post these Links!
Cheers

I don't doubt it! I am a novice but have found that a little help can go a long way, so just wanted to give back a little, for anyone in my position. Not the experts, of course!

[Jayne Jones]

Hi again, I have received his war records today and the mystery deepens. He joined the Territoral Army in July 1943 and was assigned to the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers. He served until being discharged on medical grounds in 1946. This obviously doesn’t solve where he was in 1939-1942 or the fact that it says in the newspaper that he is serving in the Merchant Navy in 1942 when his brother was killed, or explain his shore leave in March 1942 in New York. Any further ideas about finding out any more information would be gratefully received! His records don’t contain a photograph sadly.

[Doc Vernon]

Hello Jayne
Well at least you have a start , glad that you got those Records. As they are WO Records and are as seen Army, we still need to try and find out if he has any MN Records? Strange this ??
Name: W H Lawlor . Service number: 14659203 . Date of birth: 13 May 1909 . | The National Archives What we have so far!

I am just wondering if possibly he was with the US Merchant Marine at all?

Also if not, would he still have records at the Southampton Archives which hold Originals of many Seaman? Possibly an Email to the Maritime Section at Southampton would be an idea??

Being lost at Sea Records will be hard to find. But??
Must look around and see f there is any other avenues!
Cheers

The Ship info shows that it may well have been US owned at some point. This makes me think?

Motor Vessel ADELLEN built by Blythswood Shipbuilding Co Ltd in 1930 for Adellen Shipping Co. Ltd., London - Bernuth, Lembcke & Co., New York, Tanker


Crewlist from Adellen (British motor tanker) - Ships hit by German U-boats during WWII - uboat.net

Bit confused here as the Casualty list shows different Initials ? Am i missing something?? Old Age!! LOL

Requisitioned Auxiliary - Adellen - Historical RFA

[Jayne Jones]

Hi Doc,

He wasn’t on Adellen - that was his brother Arthur David Lawlor and the ship was sunk and he was lost at sea on 22nd February 1942. In the newspaper article, in the local newspaper, not reported until March 1943, it mentions my grandfather William Lawlor and says he also is serving within the Merchant Navy. We also have the shore leave immigration pass for William for March 3rd 1942. He didn’t join the army until 15th July 1943. It doesn’t mention any previous service but then it doesn’t list the Merchant Navy in the question about previous service.

[Doc Vernon]

OK Jayne
Thanks for that, got a wee bit mixed up! LOL
So now about William, have you yet Emailed the Southampton Maritime Archives, who hold Thousands of Records of Merchant Seaman. May just have something there??
Worth a try!

Again though looking at the Picture of William (presume its him) and the RN Uniform?


Here again you need to look at trying to establish if he was in the RN, which looks very much like it!
Could have been Merchant after or before??

Requesting service records

So lets look at all avenues Jayne . Let us know what happens please!
Cheers
Ancestry Seems to have some info on him, but its a PAId Sub. Site and i do not belong . I am with FMP. cHEERS

Lawlor.JPG

[Jayne Jones]

Hi Doc,

I have access to ancestry and have looked at these records and they don't seem to be him.

However, I found this on American National Archives site about his Alien Registration card, so that also seems to confirm that he was a seaman of some sort:

"The A-number range 9000001 through 9831497 are for Alien Registration Forms completed by foreign seamen when they entered American ports."

I have emailed them to see if they have a copy of the form completed as this may give details of the ship he was on and this may help trace more information about him. I am hoping it is another lead!

I will definitely also email the Southampton Maritime Archives.

I will keep you updated! I haven't given up yet!