Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 24

Thread: question regarding cadets and apprentices.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Location
    Kernersville NC
    Posts
    214
    Thanks (Given)
    0
    Thanks (Received)
    474
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    983

    Default question regarding cadets and apprentices.

    My late father served in the Merchant Navy and got his start as an apprentice with Kaye & Son SS Company back in the 30s. I have a copy of his indenture papers. My father always referred to his days as a cadet in the Merchant Navy. My question is were apprentices also cadets. I am pretty sure that Dad did not attend any schoolship.

    Thanks for your thoughts
    Ian

  2. Thanks Doc Vernon thanked for this post
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    35
    Thanks (Given)
    0
    Thanks (Received)
    8
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    15

    Default Re: question regarding cadets and apprentices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Adrian Millar View Post
    My late father served in the Merchant Navy and got his start as an apprentice with Kaye & Son SS Company back in the 30s. I have a copy of his indenture papers. My father always referred to his days as a cadet in the Merchant Navy. My question is were apprentices also cadets. I am pretty sure that Dad did not attend any schoolship.

    Thanks for your thoughts
    Ian
    I was a 1955 BP Tanker Co Marine Engineering Apprentice. In 1966 BP TC Changed the names of all Apprentices Deck and Engineering to Cadets. I signed an Apprenticeship document , though not too sure what the Deck guys did. When I went to sea as an Apprentice I had a MN Discharge Book, the Deck guys did not until they finished their time so it was a little odd.
    Graham

  4. Thanks Doc Vernon thanked for this post
  5. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Location
    Kernersville NC
    Posts
    214
    Thanks (Given)
    0
    Thanks (Received)
    474
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    983

    Default Re: question regarding cadets and apprentices.

    Thank you Graham for your comments. My Dad was an apprentice around 1936/37 and we have a copy of the indenture paper he signed with Kaye & Son and as I recall it was signed by my Grandmother and one of her brothers as well. I have never seen any MN Discharge book for my dad so he may not have had one. I still have to try and find a source for that material. I know that he did sail aboard the MARYLYN and also the SERINGA and the GYPSUM QUEEN in which he was torpedoed off Greenland in 1941. I would think he might have been issued a discharge book at some point but perhaps it was lost with the rest of his belongings in the sinking. Anyway my main concern is that we recognize my father's service as it was, regardless if it was as an apprentice or a cadet he did his bit and we are very proud of that.

    Ian

  6. Thanks Doc Vernon thanked for this post
  7. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Wirral
    Posts
    2,596
    Thanks (Given)
    2871
    Thanks (Received)
    2533
    Likes (Given)
    4410
    Likes (Received)
    6267

    Default Re: question regarding cadets and apprentices.

    I always thought that the difference between Apprentice and Cadet was that an Apprentice was Indentured and a Cadet was not. I served my time in L+H employed as a Company Cadet. I was not indentured and signed on Articles just like any member of the Crew and had my own Discharge Book. We wore a Cadets Uniform off duty and ate in the Saloon, apart from that we worked day work on deck under the Bosun just like the normal deck crew of ABs, EDH's, and OS,'s. Sometimes we did Gangway Duty in uniform if the ship had special guests visiting but we learnt our trade the hard way. Any study had to be done in our own time including educational visits to the bridge, unless we were required to man the wheel. Other visits to the Bridge was for Brass Polishing, bridge cleaning and painting. However there was no bull as Blue Flu had and who called their Apprentices - Midshipmen and had their own training ships manned in main on deck by the apprentices.
    Last edited by Chris Allman; 6th February 2020 at 08:22 PM.
    When one door closes another one shuts, it must be the wind

  8. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Blue Mountains NSW
    Posts
    24,237
    Thanks (Given)
    45047
    Thanks (Received)
    13126
    Likes (Given)
    52440
    Likes (Received)
    39395

    Default Re: question regarding cadets and apprentices.

    Hello Ian
    Can you supply your Fathers full name and Date of Birth (Year will do) and also place
    This will help to try and see if there is copies of his Dischrage Book. He must have had one if he served on Ships i feel.
    Thank You
    Senior Site Moderator-Member and Friend of this Website

    R697530

  9. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Location
    Kernersville NC
    Posts
    214
    Thanks (Given)
    0
    Thanks (Received)
    474
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    983

    Default Re: question regarding cadets and apprentices.

    Doc Vernon, many thanks for your note. Dad's details Adrian Edwards Millar, born November 11, 1918 at Roselle, New Jersey USA

    Thanks again

    Ian

    Also thanks Chris. It makes sense what you say about the apprentice/cadet difference. For sure my dad was an apprentice as he had to sign his life away.

  10. Likes Doc Vernon, Terry Sullivan liked this post
  11. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Blue Mountains NSW
    Posts
    24,237
    Thanks (Given)
    45047
    Thanks (Received)
    13126
    Likes (Given)
    52440
    Likes (Received)
    39395

    Default Re: question regarding cadets and apprentices.

    Thank you Ian
    Had a quick look a the NA but there is no Seaman,s Pouch record for Discharge Book for that name ,there are only three entries Born 1918 with that Surname , each Born in 1) Toronto 2) Cadenden 3) Greenock

    So am not sure ,why no records!? The only way now is to check the CRS10 Records which may hold something,but that is at a cost .
    Other than that Southampton Archives may have something.

    Central index of Merchant Seamen

    He was British Merchant Navy i take it!?
    Cheers
    Last edited by Doc Vernon; 7th February 2020 at 02:10 AM.
    Senior Site Moderator-Member and Friend of this Website

    R697530

  12. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Cooma NSW
    Posts
    8,967
    Thanks (Given)
    10195
    Thanks (Received)
    5220
    Likes (Given)
    44136
    Likes (Received)
    26883

    Default Re: question regarding cadets and apprentices.

    Been through my book British vessels lost 39-45 no sign of Gypsum Queen being sunk in 41. So maybe Vernon is right and she was an American ship. Also survivors received a discharge book relplacement.
    Des

  13. Thanks Doc Vernon thanked for this post
    Likes Terry Sullivan liked this post
  14. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Blue Mountains NSW
    Posts
    24,237
    Thanks (Given)
    45047
    Thanks (Received)
    13126
    Likes (Given)
    52440
    Likes (Received)
    39395

    Default Re: question regarding cadets and apprentices.

    This is from Uboat net it does give that Ship name and Crew on it at the time ,however your Dads name would not be there as he survived, I will still look around .
    I see there is one RN on that list possibly he too was RN THEN ??
    cHEERS

    Crew lists from ships hit by U-boats Gypsum Queen British steam merchant. This is a listing of people associated with this ship. We also have a detailed page on the British steam merchant Gypsum Queen. Aboard Gypsum Queen when hit on 11 Sep 1941. You can click on any of the names for possible additional information.

    The stern shot at 02.12 hours hit the Gypsum Queen, which sank within one minute. The master, eight crew members and one gunner from the Gypsum Queen (Master Alban Jason Chapman) were lost. 23 crew members and three gunners were picked up by the Norwegian steam merchant Vestland and landed at Belfast. On board

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Doc Vernon; 7th February 2020 at 01:40 AM.
    Senior Site Moderator-Member and Friend of this Website

    R697530

  15. Thanks Des Taff Jenkins thanked for this post
  16. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sunbury Victoria Australia
    Posts
    24,991
    Thanks (Given)
    8300
    Thanks (Received)
    10126
    Likes (Given)
    106523
    Likes (Received)
    45653

    Default Re: question regarding cadets and apprentices.

    Sent to me by JS, do wish he would return.


    John Chris Allman Is mostly correct re difference between cadets and apprentices. People assume. They are the same they were not in my time. An apprentice did not get a discharge in his book. His name was in the articles in the young persons page if under 18. His seatime was written on the back of his indentures and signed by the company for proof for the B.O.T. He had no entitlement to leave . He was in fact the property of the owner. For that privilige a bond was put on his head usually by his parents if he had any. Which was payable if he skinned out or was sacked for bad behaviour. He could be used in the manning scale depending on his seatime for any rank up to AB. A cadet signed on a ship as cadet and paid off as a cadet and could leave a ship the same as any other crew member and go to another company. It later became convenient to call apprentices cadets which they were not. The same as a master being called captain, purely a complimentary title as captain is a military title, with someone holding the queens commission. Today anything goes. For my 4 years apprenticeship I had one discharge which was a mistake by the master , as he knew no better at the time. An apprentice had a Dis, Book which was kept as usual by the master as had on it everything else regarding paperwork required by various port officials , NHI number , description of seaman, foreign visas stamped in back viz. CCPR ( USSR) , vaccination cert. etc etc. cadets were paid more than apprentices and were not serfs as such. They were the privateers among a bunch of pirates. I also believe although called midshipmen , blue flu apprentices were in fact apprentices as signed indentures . If I had of had my way I would have joined the RN at 15 done my 22 years for a pension , come out and did the exact as I did in any case, would have been a damn sight easier and better paid no doubt. Parents do what they think is right but unfortuanetley are liable to make mistakes on thinking they are doing right. My son who is now in his 50s asked me why I had never asked him if he would like a sea going life. I would have thought the long separations would have been self explanatory., as would never push someone into a position they would later regret. Unless you have the luck of the Irish to marry the correct woman , you are up the creek without a paddle. When I ask my wife today all she says is I knew what I was marrying. She never nagged me to come ashore, the. Few times I thought about it was on my own choice. Think I said we even got a 58 year congratulation from the PM and another from the Governor General 2 weeks ago. Something to leave for the great grandkids , as said before , there won’t be any money. Cheers John S.
    Happy daze John in Oz.

    Life is too short to blend in.

    John Strange R737787
    World Traveller

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •