Punishments for Desertion

[Bill Morrison]

From a dim memory. I can recall the Trawl Fishermen who had signed articles and refused to sail, brought before the court find and sentenced to prison anything from seven days to a month. Some shipping act of !!!! was usually quoted.

[j.sabourn]

Apprentices Indenture ... is on form C. 4c. Ex. Shipping Federation and is a scrolled parchment which could have had its origins in the 1860s judging by the wording. One of the many paragraphs which are too many to copy on here is “ And it is further agreed that if at any time during the said term that is convicted of any offence under the Merchant Shipping Acts or any sickness the company may terminate his employment “.
JWS

[j.sabourn]

A further bit from Indenture.....And it is further agreed that if. The said term of four years expires whilst the apprentice is serving outside the United Kingdom , he will continue to serve on board his vessel until the next arrival of the said vessel within Home Trade limits, or until the termination of the current Articles of Agreement whichever shall first happen, but on the said expiry shall sign the said articles of agreement as a Cadet , and shall be paid at a rate equivilant to the current pay of an Able Seaman.
JWS.

To bring the Indentures up to more modern standards at the time a rider was added.
Notwithstanding the covenant on the part of the company hereinbefore contained for the payment to the said apprentice of the sum of £390 in the manner specified . The company hereby further covenants to pay the said apprentice in lieu of the said sum of £390 the sum of £480 in manner following ( that is to say) for the first years. Service Ninety Pounds, for the second years service one hundred and fifteen pounds, for the third years service one hundreds and thirty pounds, and for the fourth years service one hundred and forty five pounds. ( subject to the. (Deductions already specified) together with the further sum of £25 payable after satisfactory service for. term of the Indenture.

Previous to above salary’s they had been £75……£95…£105…£120…
JWS
As said in an earlier post an app. I knew did 5 years away. He had 1 years on ABs money however . Most of us had £25 pound and 12 weeks dole at 30 shillings a week to get you a through 2 mates. Plus whatever you had saved during 4 years. Ivan I think was an apprentice and not a cadet and would confirm as probably signed the same indentures. So once again a cadet was not an apprentice regardless of what some may think. Cheers JWS

[j.sabourn]

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#1... I hope you have been able to glean something from the various replies Judith... summing up is nothing definite there, but in general an apprentice would have been if anything worse off than his more modern counterpart. I would say he would have been very liable for a Gaol sentence the same as any seafarer. If examinations were being held in 1860 he would probably have been barred from sitting. However saying that most that I have met in Australia jumped ship or more legally deserted. At the time in certain areas as long as you kept your nose clean you were allowed to stay. My opposite number on one ship out here was an ex Norwegian ships carpenter who deserted in Darwin. He rose to master. Was a good Australian citizen. I found nearly every seaman I met out here had a UK background. Rather think though there were legal obligations on the immigration to return young persons that was anyone under 18 years of age. I even have a namesake out here I never knew about, his father jumped ship out here in 1926 and married an Australian girl. If you require more accurate information would be better to consult a good maritime museum or some nautical historian. Most of what we say is our own assumptions. Regards John Sabourn.

[happy daze john in oz]

I would think that even as late as the 1800's there would have been press gangs of sorts even for merchant ships.
Under those conditions I doubt apprentiship would exist.

From the posting here I gather it only concerns deck, was engine different?

With catering we had apprentice cooks and from memory they had each voyage marked in their discharge book.
But they would have come under different rules and regulations to deck, some still had to take shore time for schooling.

[j.sabourn]

John there were press gangs in Aberdeen in the 1980s. See where I got one poor blighter who didn’t know where he was the following day on coming to. Some of your pier head jumps were very close to the term. The ship owner would not have a delayed ship if avoidable. That was loss of earnings. I never came across Engineer apprentices during my time, although they may have existed. All the engineers I knew were usually time served in the shipyards, although at least one served his time in a razor blade factory , and another was a blacksmith which I used to say he learned to shoe horses only joking of course. They were graded by the DTI I believe in what trade they served their time , which was mainly fitting and turning I believe, any engineer will know better than me. A good friend of mine now dead was an electrician by trade and rose to chief engineer on a diesel electric ship I was on. Most engineers had their preference on describing themselves as steam trained and the motor endorsement was secondary or the other way round, depending how strong they felt on the subject. A subject for engineers, I never interfered in the E.R. That was the chief and the seconds domain. All I wanted was to be kept in the picture if any problems down below. Cheers JS

[cappy]

John there were press gangs in Aberdeen in the 1980s. See where I got one poor blighter who didn’t know where he was the following day on coming to. Some of your pier head jumps were very close to the term. The ship owner would not have a delayed ship if avoidable. That was loss of earnings. I never came across Engineer apprentices during my time, although they may have existed. All the engineers I knew were usually time served in the shipyards, although at least one served his time in a razor blade factory , and another was a blacksmith which I used to say he learned to shoe horses only joking of course. They were graded by the DTI I believe in what trade they served their time , which was mainly fitting and turning I believe, any engineer will know better than me. A good friend of mine now dead was an electrician by trade and rose to chief engineer on a diesel electric ship I was on. Most engineers had their preference on describing themselves as steam trained and the motor endorsement was secondary or the other way round, depending how strong they felt on the subject. A subject for engineers, I never interfered in the E.R. That was the chief and the seconds domain. All I wanted was to be kept in the picture if any problems down below. Cheers JS

#####well john as for the blacksmith down below ...the horse power was massive so there feet had to be seen to ....lol cappy

[j.sabourn]

This was in 1964 Cappy . He was a man in his 50s then , so could well have been shoeing your milkman’s horse , the one you fell in love with. What did they call it Watt wasn’t it ?, he was as strong as 746 horses so they say. Good stuff in that unskimmed milk. I used to be a milk monitor at school until I got the sack for throwing the contents of a bottle at another boy, missing him and this stupid teacher got in the way . Don’t know what he had to complain about as saw him licking it off his face like a cat. Cheers JS

[cappy]

##well john the horses name was boxer.....and he new when he was going back for his nosh .......he walked the whole round ...but after the last customer was served ....he got really skittish ....he trotted on then broke into a canter .....then bless him went for the full gallop....the crates and empties banging all over but it was all on to stop him galloping and get him back to a canter ......as people shreeked YAHOOOO as he shot down to his stable ,,,,nigh on blew me hat off .....whoa boxer whoa.....lol

[Tony Taylor]

##well john the horses name was boxer.....and he new when he was going back for his nosh .......he walked the whole round ...but after the last customer was served ....he got really skittish ....he trotted on then broke into a canter .....then bless him went for the full gallop....the crates and empties banging all over but it was all on to stop him galloping and get him back to a canter ......as people shreeked YAHOOOO as he shot down to his stable ,,,,nigh on blew me hat off .....whoa boxer whoa.....lol

HA HA Reminded me when I was a kid, lived in small mining village in North Durham, the local farmer delivered milk with a horse and cart, the horse knew the round so was never driven , he just walked around and stopped in same places every day. Invariably he would take a dump in the same place at the end of our street. The lady who lived there had a dog with a taste for horse cr-p and if he got the chance he would launch out of the house and scoff the lot, much to our amusement, however it turned out that he would go back in the house and spew it up on floor.
So it was not uncommon for some young scoundrel to knock on the back door while another would open the front and let the dog out; this became a popular spectacle for all the local kids, mainly at weekends when there was no school