Discharge Book Lost On Empress Of Ireland

[Lee Murray]

Hey guys, I've just finished copying all the details from 2 of my grandads discharge books but it seems he lost another one, (probably the 1st), when the Empress Of Ireland went down, (luckily he was saved or I obviously wouldn't be wriiting this post!). There are also a few other details that I couldn't quite decipher from the remaining books so I'd like to know if there's anywhere I could get these details and/or a copy of the 1st book. Cheers. Lee.

[j.sabourn]

I have 3 Discharge books, The first discharge book was superceded to do away Reports on Ability and conduct and the later one issued in the 70"s do not show this. However the number should still be the same unless there was a long times ashore and he applied for a new book as a new entrant. What sort of years are you talking about. What cant you decipher. ? Regards JWS

[Lee Murray]

Thanks for the reply, the 1st book I have states 'Renewal book original lost through shipwreck' and the 1st entries are for 3 trips on the Empress Of Ireland from the 21st March 1914 up until the day the ship sank then the rest of the book is full of trips up until 5th March 1939, the 2nd book I have runs from 10th March 1939 until 16th June 1953. I will ask my uncle about any trips my grandad made prior to the 1st date but I'm sure he did. There are a total of 71 trips in the books but I have some others that I dug up from a website quite a few years back that aren't in these books even though the dates fall between 1914 and 1953 so I need to find out about these, the stuff I can't decipher is down to handwriting and basically regards everything from dates to job description, destinations etc.

[j.sabourn]

The books you have ref. to 1953 will have on the pages entitled Certificates
of Discharge-
Name of ship and official Number-date and Place of engagement and Discharge-Rating-Description of Voyage-Copy of Report of Character Ability and Conduct-Signature of Master and of officer and official stamp.
Later in the 70"s The Report of Character and Conduct was expunged from the book.Under the title name of ship would also be Gross and Nett Tonnage usually. Pre 1970 or so a shipping master did have to be present on opening and closing Articles of Agreement and he would also sign on closure of Agreement, Today this is not necessary as they don't exist as such.
In the back of book on the Blank pages could be a place for various immigration authoritys to put their official stamp. Russia had a habit of doing this and I have a few CCCP stamps in mine, CCCP = USSR as far as I know. Later NHI contributions were also entered on these pages by some ships probably for their own records. Also Income tax numbers. Next of Kin was also on the back page of the book. A photo of the seaman and description of same was in the front of book together with any tattoos and distinguishing marks. Any certificates held and their number was also entered in the first page also. There was and is no mention of what ports the ship went to. Cheers JWS

[Hugh]

Thanks for the reply, the 1st book I have states 'Renewal book original lost through shipwreck'.

Hello Lee,

Yes, he would have lost the original book when the ship went down and he was issued a renewal free of charge by the Mercantile Marine Office.
The shoreside clerk could easily have missed out previous entries.

The only real way to go here would be to use Crew Agreements from the EMPRESS OF IRELAND for 1914 to find out his previous ship. Once you have that you can then find that ship's Crew Agreement as his previous ship should be named.
With regard to checking what is written up on his discharge books you could cross refer his discharge books for WW2 and beyond with his CRS 10 - service record from 1941- if it has survived. It should be held at Kew. I would need his full name, date and place of birth to advise you further.

Regards
Hugh

[Lee Murray]

Hi Hugh thanks for the reply, his name was Peter Murray, d.o.b. 24/06/1883, born in Liverpool and dischage number 792860 if that helps.

[Hugh]

Hi Lee,

There are records held in the Fourth Register of Seamen 1918-1940 and here are some of his voyages taken from the cards. This is not a complete listing. If you send me your email address by private message I will forward the cards on to you. Also, one of the cards confirms previous discharge book lost on EMPRESS OF IRELAND official number, 123972, dated 28.7.1914. If you check the EMPRESS OF IRELAND’S Crew Agreements for 1914 you should see his name listed and his previous ship (with a bit of luck). The file is held at Kew in piece BT 100/338 - Empress of Ireland | The National Archives

NEVISIAN – 14.11.1922
SARUS – 24.4.1922
ROMNEY – 23.3.1923
ARABY – 14.7.1923
TUSCARORA – 21.11.1923
SIAMESE PRINCE – 1.3.1924
MEDIC – 24.5.1924
MERCHANT PRINCE – 1.1.1925
SEMINOLE – 14.4.1925
LA PERLA – 25.7.1925
EMPRESS OF BRITAIN – 25.9.1925
INVERLEITH – 25.11.1925
MOBILOIL – 12.3.1926
ARIADNE ALEXANDRA – 28.7.1926
BRITISH BEACON – 4.8.1926
LOMBARDY – 11.6.1927
WAR DIWAN – 17.12.1927
WINNEBAGO – 2.12.1938
WHITE HERON – 30.8.1929
MONTCLARE – 16.12.1938
MONTCLARE – 6.3.1939
LA PAZ - 21.8.1940

His WW2 medal file held at Kew in piece BT 395/1/70843 can be downloaded for £3.50. Medal listing of Murray, Peter Discharge number: 792860 Date of Birth: 25... | The National Archives
His WW2 service record – CRS 10 – should be held in this file at Kew BT 382/1297 - Murray Percy to Murray Walter | The National Archives best viewed/obtained by visit to the archives.
Regards
Hugh

[Lee Murray]

Hi Hugh and once again thank you, I have just checked his books against the list you posted and found the following:- 9 from your list tally, 4 are not in the books, 24/05/24 Medic, (although there are 2 entries on that ship before the date and 1 after), 01/01/25 Merchant Prince, 28/07/26 Ariadne Alexandra and 04/08/26 British Beacon, also 24/04/22 states the ship was the Merchant Prince rather than the Sarus, 01/03/24 Medic not Siamese Prince, 25/09/25 Montroyal not Empress Of Britain and 30/08/29 Duchess Of Atholl rather than the White Heron, there are also a few dates different from those you gave as follows, 14/05/25 for the Seminole, 13/03/26 Mobiloil, 03/12/28 Winnebago and 10/03/39 for the Montclare. I spoke to my uncle who said grandad was definitely on more ships before the Empress Of Ireland went down which confirms my suspicion that the 1st book I have is actually his 2nd plus he said that he was at sea every year up until he retired yet one of the books has a gap of 9 years, (there's the odd 6 months here and there where he seems to have stayed ashore but that's all). Another thing I find very interesting is that there is an entry for 09/08/14 that says he was on the Caronia for naval duty but it gives no end date, the next entry is 11/08/20 for the Anglo-Egyptian BUT I have information that says he was on the following inbetween those dates:- 16/04/19 Baltic, 15/11/19 Thranga and 15/06/20 General Church. All very confusing but absolutely fascinating and has me hooked, I now intend to try and complete these records and also find out about my dad's ships, (although apparently he wasn't in the MN that long and I've never seen his books or heard him mention them, he died in 2012). I had my heart set on a life at sea when I left school and was weeks away from my training at Gravesend when at the medical I told them I had been exposed to the TB virus years earlier and that was that, sent home there and then never to set foot on anything but the Mersey Ferry for days out .

P.S. Once I find out how to do it I can post some pics of the books etc., I also think that I have the war medal records that you mention but again would need to post for verification

[Lee Murray]

Ok so I think I've sussed a few things out, I have a photocopy of what look like 2 tags that I ordered a few years back but then forgot about, I think they may be the same ones that your list came from, one has a list of 20 ships official numbers on alongside dates and having checked them again against the discharge books I can see that a few of the numbers are wrong by 1 digit as are some dates, the other tag is regarding the British Beacon and is stamped 13 August 1926, this and another 5, (not 4 as stated above), do not appear in the books. Phew it's like being a detective this isn't it!

Just discovered 2 more cards, 1 has a pic of my grandad on and again a list of ships numbers and dates and again a few discrepancies, 08/11/20 states 121216 which was either the Marlock or Victorian but discharge book says 113476 Celtic and 01/03/21 says 136791 which was the Metagama while the book again says the Celtic!..........................I need to sleep before my brain explodes

Oh can you make out the name for the 15/11/19, (if you have the same cards that is), looks like Thiranga to me but I can't find any info on a ship of that name

[Hugh]

Oh can you make out the name for the 15/11/19, (if you have the same cards that is), looks like Thiranga to me but I can't find any info on a ship of that name

Hi Lee,

Sorry I forgot to copy the ships of that card. The first ship that you are asking about is YPIRANGA built 1908 as ASSYRIA. You should have 5 cards if you are missing any let me know.
The cards from The Fourth Register of Seamen contain many mistakes and omissions so bear that in mind - his discharge book should be accurate.

Regards
Hugh