Merchant Navy Engineer and the meaning of ‘2nd Class’

[j.sabourn]

Derek, on British ships during most peoples on Site who went to sea , the certicates of competency apart from Extra certs of competency re Foreign going... Deck was Master, Mate and Second Mate. The engine room was 1st and 2nd Class Steam Motor or. Combined. You may be right on further going back in time, doubt if anyone can go back to that time on Site as a practicing seafarer. I very much doubt your surmises however as if you go back far enough you come to sail. They may. have had. Permits or dispensations . Am sure some maritime museum or maritime college may have further info, on this. Rgds JWS. PS normal practice on British ships was the 2 3 and 4 engineers were the watchkeepers. The junior engineers were used as and where required, the second engineer usually put them on watches as well. If he the second engineer was sailing on a dispensation known during the war years as a. Permit , he was usually said to be sailing on the chiefs cert. this is I believe incorrect as he had to get his dispensation through the BOT or the MOT for that one particular ship and that particulr voyage, this was an oral examination I beleive. An engineer would have more knowledge, but one has already said more or less

what I have just reconfirmed. Rgds once more. JWS. PS Ivan's post also sounds feasible, that he already had a
1st or 2nd Class certificate, most people at sea sailed with a superior cert. I knew a master who pre war was telling me that he took a job as nightwatchman on laid up ships on the Tyne during those years and considered himself lucky to have a job. I sat my masters cert in 1963, but out here at various times have sailed in other ranks if filling in as required. Was part of the agreement with the seamans unions that if they were short handed would fill in. To me I knocked back a couple of masters jobs when younger as didn't like losing my freedom and sailed for a long time as mate as was the way I wanted it, was only in hind sight when saw what the future held, thought it was time to give up my liberty, which was nearly too late as there werent many ships around. It is common practice or was on the liners to have a masters cert. to get a job of junior 4th mates job at one time. Think myself and maybe others have misread your post and assumed as you yourself have thought that because he was sailing as 3 rd. engineer he had a cert. for that rank, there is no such thing on British ships unless of course as of today they call these class certs. That every man and his dog has, which were not there in your grandads time. So the number of certificate you have should probably find out to where it belongs which will probably be a 1 or 2 class cert. Steam or motor or both . JWS

[robpage]

dispensation by examination ( oral ) 1 ship 1 trip so a 3rd could do a 2nd's job for a temporary period

[Fouro]

During the mid 1950's, a 20,000 tons British steam turbine oil tanker had six engine room watch keeping engineers, three seniors and three juniors. The chief engineer never did watches. On the 4-8 watch the second was in charge, on the 8-12 the fourth was in charge and on the 12-4 the third was in charge. On each watch was a junior engineer to assist the senior. Also on each watch was a fireman. The second engineer was in charge of the engine room. Apart from normal watch keeping duties, the third engineer was responsible for everything electrical on the ship. The fourth engineer was responsible for the maintenance of evaporators. When in use an evaporator had to produce more than four tons of distilled water during each watch in order to supply the boilers with water. Oh, and when machinery on deck needed repairing, the engineers on their eight hours off watchkeeping duties had to carry out the repairs. If I remember correctly,performing such duties were classed as Field Days. And another thing when approaching a port no matter what time it was, when the engine room telegraph clanged "Stand By", every engineer except the Chief, had to report down below ASAP.

Fouro.

[j.sabourn]

#13... This was the general way most ships worked. The biggest change to this was not too long after the 1966 seamans strike. Which was the very beginning of demanning,. I was still on British ships immediately after. I was mate and was asked to take an official around the ship and explain to him how many men we needed to tie up or let go. At the time I ways concerned that it took 3 men to handle each heavy wire backspring. Thought this was a good argument against demanning. Received a letter from the company saying in future all backsprings would be an 8 inch mooring rope. This is to facilitate one man being able to handle. There were numerous other minor arguments and always will be until our generation are gone and those coming behind accept everything as gospel.
As regards Safety everything goes back to safety on paper which causes more time filling in forms and thus causing further safety hazards in themselves. A big thing is made of Safety today on ships and to me just caused another beuracracy full of its own self importance and manned by people who were not seafarers themselfs, but the job was very well meaning financially to that department ashore. I disappeared off British flag shipping for 5 years or so as not happy the way it was going and on coming back as an outsider it was apparent to me there was not much to offer British seafarers, so watched the oil industry which seemed to be more firmly entrenched and gave that a shot, and only went back deep sea during lay up of ships. But again when did go back were foreign flags as were the only work around. Do I think the Manning of British ships is under manned, in most cases I do. As some people say safety is ok if it doesn't cost money, and in most cases I agree also. Company loyalty is a good thing only when it is reciprocated. JWS

[robpage]

I was fortunate to sail on ships with electricians , except for one old King Line ship , every company seemed to handle " Stand By " in different ways , some the Chief was there for the duration , some not . I was always led to believe the 8 - 12 was the Chief's watch , but done by the 4th engineer . British & Commonwealth used t carry , Senior & Junior second engineers on Clan and Castle ships , they and the 3rd Engineer were senior watchkeepers , the fourth was on the Senor Seconds 4-8 watch ., the Junior Second on the 12 - 4 .

[j.sabourn]

#15... same same Rob .. The 8/12 was the masters watch . But in principle he never did unless necessary. If he had a conscience he wouldn't turn in before midnight. The master was always to me the ultimate end to a career at sea where he was put in an inactive position as regards running around as a reward for past endeavours. It was a pleasure to sail as their Ch. officer with many of them as never interfered or only when absolutely necessary. However there appeared a new breed at sea whose ultimate aim was to get there as fast as possible and in the interim make others life at sea a pain in the ass. At 63 on one ship had a mate with me of 26 or there about who was constantly asking me when I was going to retire and asking for Good reports on such. Honestly speaking I wouldn't have carried him for ballast. Today however it is not what you know but who. Most masters I sailed with asked me to write out my own report. I just used to tick the average boxes. If I had done the same with this bloke he would have ticked all the excellent boxes, and the company would have known he had written himself, Ref DC ships I was on, who didn't carry an electrician was always the thirds job is where he made his overtime. Cheers JWS

[robpage]

With the Clan Line ship that had no electrician they ( I believe ) were the ones with steam winches ,steam DC generators , and 110 V lighting , they also had no hot or cold running water in cabins having a fill /empty system Clan MacL.... ships comes to mind

[j.sabourn]

When they brought gyro compasses on to such ships they had to produce a 220 a/c volt current to run so had to put though an inverter. The early Gyro had to have a steady and constant current otherwise the Gyro would wander, so the current was put though a carbon pile to stop large fluctuations in flow. Thiis was adjusted by a screw on the carbon pile hanging on the wheelhouse bulkhead, but more often than not was adjusted by giving a sharp rap with the hand, if had been lower on bulkhead would have probably been a kick whenever it started to whine. Thank the Lord for A/C ships. Was sometimes better to rely on the magnetic compass. Which I believe there is talk of doing away with. If haven't already done so. This post is developing into an AC/DC discussion maybe it should be in the SSM post Cheers JWS

[robpage]

In the mid 1960's when the 220 V-AC wiring changed from RED / BLACK / GREEN to BLUE / BROWN / GREEN - YELLOW a fellow B & C apprentice, Ian Atkinson died through an incorrectly wired power drill , no electrician carried , I am a believer in training can save lives

[Jim Dixon]

dispensation by examination ( oral ) 1 ship 1 trip so a 3rd could do a 2nd's job for a temporary period

Sailed with several 2/Eng (dispensated) in ore carriers/tramps all excellent 'hands on' men. Never looked into what was required of them but always wondered how one 2/eng in JIJs would have managed a written exam. Saying that he lived in his boiler suit an the job never missed a beat. Referred by his peers as a 'hammer and chisel' man and I took that to be a compliment.