British MN Lapel Pin looking to find source to buy from or get from

[Ivan Cloherty]

PREFER THIS VERSION. In wartime, Britain depended on civilian cargo ships to import food and raw materials, as well as to transport soldiers overseas, and keep them supplied. The title 'Merchant Navy' was granted by King George V after the First World War to recognise the contribution made by merchant sailors.

Sorry Keith where does this fit in with what we are discussing, and what does 'prefer this version' mean when we are discussing badges issued during WWII and National service. Facts are facts.

[Rodney Mills]

Following is a copy of The British Merchant Navy Assc. criteria for award of either/both The Merchant Navy Veterans Badge and the Armed Forces Veterans Badge:




UK MERCHANT SEAFARERS VETERANS BADGE

The Merchant Seafarers’ bravery and sacrifice in assisting HM Armed Forces in military operations has been formally commemorated with the launch of the UK Merchant Seafarers Veterans Badge. This is the only variant of the HM Armed Forces Veterans Badge and recognises the unique service provided by merchant seafarers in support of military operations.
UK MERCHANT SEAFARING VETERANS AGREED DEFINITION
Introduction
The Merchant Navy and UK fishing fleets have always been called upon to provide support to both theUK Armed Forces and the Nation during wartime, other hostilities and military operations. These*actions, together with seafarers’ personnel records of the ships in which they served, are well*documented. There is already a broad consensus from all parties, including the MOD, that such*seafarers should be regarded as veterans within the Armed Forces Community. However, the terms*‘Merchant Navy Veteran’ and ‘Merchant Seafaring Veteran’ continue to be used without understanding or*a single clear definition. Consequently those civilian seafarers who are entitled to be regarded as*veterans and therefore part of the Armed Forces Community occasionally have their status challenged or*ignored altogether. It is considered that an officially endorsed definition would bring greater clarity to this*sometimes confused area, as well as greater recognition to this often overlooked section of the UK*seafaring community.

UK
Aim
The aim of this paper is to provide a common, agreed and endorsed definition of UK Merchant Seafarers
who form part of the Armed Forces Community.
The Armed Forces Community
The Armed Forces Community, as currently defined by the MOD, comprises individuals currently serving
as members of HM Armed Forces, including the UK Reserve Forces; their families; widows/widowers;
veterans and their dependants.

QUALIFICATION CRITERIA
Qualification by Conflict
World Wars I & II. Although there are no known merchant seafarers now alive from World War I, their
retrospective status as veterans may still be appreciated by their descendants. All merchant seafarers
and fishermen serving aboard any UK vessel between the first and last day of World War II were
deemed to be serving “Under Admiralty Charter” throughout the conflict. While their actual conditions of
service differed, these personnel faced the same dangers and should, in terms of recognition, be treated
as if they were Royal Navy personnel during the period of this service. WWII began on 3 September
1939 (when the first vessel SS “Athena” was sunk) and ended on VJ Day on 15 August 1945. During
the conflict a large number of merchant seafarers and fishermen found themselves onboard ships that
were requisitioned by the Royal Navy. Many of these men volunteered to remain onboard as crew,
working alongside Royal Navy personnel. While they remained on their civilian pay and leave
conditions, they were required to sign T124X or T124T agreements which placed them under the Naval
Discipline Act and strengthened their case for similar recognition to their RN colleagues.

Other Conflicts post 1945. Those legally defined military operations recognised by the UK Government
as those in which the Merchant fleet supported the military included, but are not limited to, Korea (1950-
53), Suez (1956), South Atlantic (1982), Gulf (Kuwait Crisis) (1990-91) and Gulf (Iraq Invasion) (2003).
Significantly all Merchant Navy seafarers who served in these zones are entitled to receive campaign
medals following certain periods in theatre: for example, over 5000 such medals were awarded for the
Falklands campaign alone. Under the Protection of Military Remains Act (PMRA), two merchant vessels
(Storaa and Atlantic Conveyor) have so far been designated as protected places, in recognition of their
status in supporting UK military operations.

Non UK Conflicts.
A significant number of British merchant seafarers, in going about their lawful
business, were required to sail into war zones not involving the UK. These include places such as
Vietnam, and the Persian Gulf during the Iran/Iraq war. These were warlike areas and a number of
British merchant seafarers were killed or injured as a result of armed actions. More recently, the
concept of war zones and areas of warlike operations has been extended to include piracy hotspots with
such areas being designated as “high risk” e.g. the UK Warlike Operations Area Committee has recently
declared an area in the Gulf of Aden as “high risk”. Nonetheless, it is not intended to pursue official
veteran status, which implies some form of service to the Nation, for these personnel, and they are not
considered to be part of the Armed Forces Community.

Proof of Service
While mercantile marine records are not comparable with those held on behalf of the UK Armed Forces,British merchant seafarers normally have Discharge Books which contain details of the vessels in which*they served including the dates. The names and dates of those ships that sailed into the operational*zones are retained in the records held by the MCA’s Registry of Shipping and Seamen. The RoyalNaval Historical Archive holds online records, and the Merchant Navy Association and the Federation ofMerchant Mariners also keep an expanding database of those qualifying personnel who have been*awarded the Merchant Navy Veterans badge. Ships’ Articles, crew lists and discharge books can also*provide supporting evidence. Thus, proof of service is based on confirmation of the individual’s ship*discharge record and that ship’s service in support of UK military operations.

Royal Fleet Auxiliary
RFA personnel are merchant seafarers employed by MOD (Navy) entirely to support the
UK ArmedForces. All those with RFA service are already considered as HM Armed
Forces Veterans in accordancewith existing arrangements and as such will continue to apply to the Service Personnel and Veterans*Agency for the HM Armed Forces Veterans Badge.

Conclusion
It is therefore concluded that, exceptionally, those civilians forming part of the veterans element of the
Armed Forces Community are those who have served in commercial vessels supporting the UK Armed
Forces on legally defined military operations. The actual size of this community is presently unknown,
but further studies will be undertaken by MN organisations to establish numbers more accurately. Given
that the definition of an Armed Forces veteran is any person who has served in the Forces of the Crown
and includes those with RFA service, it follows that a comparable definition for a UK civilian seafarer
from either the Merchant Navy or the fishing fleets who is considered to be an Armed Forces veteran
should be:
‘Anyone who has served on a commercial vessel at a time when it was operated to facilitate legally
defined UK military operations by HM Armed Forces’*and these personnel be called “UK Merchant Seafaring Veterans”.
Recommendation
The COBSEO Executive has agreed the above definition of a UK Merchant Seafaring Veteran,
recognising that subsequent work is needed to identify the numbers of qualified seafarers entitled to
such definition. It is recommended that the Ministry of Defence accepts that definition and endorses its
official use.
Click Here to download an application form


If that doesn't work visit The British Merchant Navy Association site for an application form.

Regards, Rodney

[Keith at Tregenna]

Sorry Keith where does this fit in with what we are discussing, and what does 'prefer this version' mean when we are discussing badges issued during WWII and National service. Facts are facts.

Sorry missed a bit.

In World War II the title Merchant Navy came into normal usage and with Royal approval a small silver buttonhole badge was produced for the non-uniformed merchant seamen from January 1940 bearing the letters "MN".

Hence,

The title 'Merchant Navy' was granted by King George V after the First World War to recognise the contribution made by merchant sailors. In World War II the title Merchant Navy came into normal usage and with Royal approval a small silver buttonhole badge was produced for the non-uniformed merchant seamen from January 1940 bearing the letters "MN".

[Ivan Cloherty]

#22, useful information Rodney. On Remembrance Sunday at the march past at the Cenotaph the MN personnel taking part are the only ones who must have served in a war zone, all other Armed Services (including RFA) and other participants are exempt from this requirement

[cappy]

#22, useful information Rodney. On Remembrance Sunday at the march past at the Cenotaph the MN personnel taking part are the only ones who must have served in a war zone, all other Armed Services (including RFA) and other participants are exempt from this requirement

###it beggars belief.....cappy

[Fouro]

Re #9 and #14.
I think I will be correct in saying past and present devotees of the MN will be the only people interested in buying this pin badge, therefore I am quite confident in saying, rather than depriving the RBL of funds, people who have bought the badges will do the opposite and continue to support the "Poppy Appeal" a charity they believe in.
The poppy is the sacred symbol of remembrance and should not be defaced in any way, no other pins, therefore should be used to attach it to clothing.

FOURO.

[Ivan Cloherty]

Re #9 and #14.
therefore I am quite confident in saying, rather than depriving the RBL of funds, people who have bought the badges will do the opposite and continue to support the "Poppy Appeal" a charity they believe in.
The poppy is the sacred symbol of remembrance and should not be defaced in any way, no other pins, therefore should be used to attach it to clothing.

FOURO.

I have never seen anyone who wears a Poppy brooch wear the RBL poppy as well, they may well wear these brooches in Remembrance, but some wear them encrusted with diamonds and gold leafs, its' more a case of my poppy is better than your poppy, whether or not they continue to 'give' I give them the benefit of the doubt, because I am a charitable person. I for one shall continue to remove the black centre piece and replace it with a MN pin badge because in a few years we will be extinct and there will be nobody left in the MN who has served in a war zone, I wish to remind the public and the Armed Forces that nobody gets anywhere without the Merchant Navy, so if my MN pin poppy offends anyone all I can say is 'fecking hard luck' because I will remember them in the only way I know how.

[Keith Tindell]

Ivan, ref 24, i could be wrong, but does that rule of serving in a war zone apply to join the royal legion social club. When i applied to join a branch here on the IOW i was asked exactly that. My answer was that i had been in the Cuban zone, instigated by the yanks in 62?, and i was a considerable time on the North African coast when there was a civil war etc, the guy just looked at me with a vacant stare, dont think he even knew where i was talking about, kt

[j.sabourn]

Keith a seamans I.D. card always got me into any working mans club, Affiliated of course, so don't know what the British Legion is so snooty about. JS

[Ivan Cloherty]

Ivan, ref 24, i could be wrong, but does that rule of serving in a war zone apply to join the royal legion social club. When i applied to join a branch here on the IOW i was asked exactly that. My answer was that i had been in the Cuban zone, instigated by the yanks in 62?, and i was a considerable time on the North African coast when there was a civil war etc, the guy just looked at me with a vacant stare, dont think he even knew where i was talking about, kt

Under a decree from the Govt (2013) the RBL is obliged to let MN veterans enter any RBL club, if they've paid their annual dues, I feel sure someone on here will come up with the text of the decree. Even though I spent many years trying to get Torbay to hold a memorial service on the 3rd September, finally succeeding in 2015 and again held in 2016 and they have promised to hold one every year, I still get a feeling when Armed Forces RBL members attend, they are very aloof and consider us MN types a bad smell under their nose.

I have placed on this site the details of 'The Federation of Merchant Mariners' to whom you should send your details and service, Derek Bristow who looks after the Veteran badge applications is currently on vacation but expected back in about ten days. Give him your details, nothing ventured nothing gained