Malabar 1847

[Bill Morrison]

This is one of the really difficult ones. CLIP gives four Malabars' around 1847. The best one is O.N. 15849 built Sunderland 1832 of 698 tons and Registered in London. The archives for the East India Company terminate in 1832. The archives of the British Library newspapers give many references to vessels called Malabar around 1847 most involved in trooping. CLIP could find no crew agreement held for the vessels listed.

[Michael Davis]

Thanks everyone. Greenwich have been very helpful:-

Thank you for contacting the National Maritime Museum.

I checked our copies of Lloyd’s Register of Shipping. There are a couple of vessels listed with the name Malabar at this time, one of which is listed as being owned by R. Green. Checking editions from various years I eventually found some entries listing a Master for this vessel as a ‘W. Pare’ which seemed close enough to ‘Parr’. I then searched our collection of Master’s certificates of competency and found the only certificate we have for someone of that surname is for a ‘William Henry Pare’ which again seems very close to your ‘William Henry Parr’. As this vessel was also engaged in trade to India, specifically sailing between London and Bombay, and later Madras in this period I would suggest this is the vessel you’re looking for, a merchant vessel rather than a Royal Naval vessel.

Lloyd’s Register gives the following details for the vessel:
647 tons, Built in 1834 in London, Owned by R. Green and registered in the port of London. For the period of around 1846 to 1848 Mr. Pare appears to have been the Master of the vessel. Based on these details I believe it later acquired the official number of 15849 once that system of registration was introduced.

As you wish to check the whereabouts of a crew member the only documents, if they survive, would be crew lists. For this period any surviving lists will most likely be held by the National Archives at Kew and you can find details of this in the following research guide from their website:
Crew lists and agreements and log books of merchant ships 1747-1860 - The National Archives

Based on this I believe the reference BT 98/2616 may contain the lists you would want, ships registered in London with names beginning MA:
Port of Registry: London Ship's Name: MA | The National Archives


Sadly TNA don't have anything useful. I have the Ancestry list of apprenticeships but have found nothing else about the 5+ years that he was on the Malabar

Does anyone think that the East India Company apprentice records might still exist and where they could be found? Also what would he have been serving an apprenticeship as? What qualifications would he emerge with? My main aim is to find out if it is remotely possible that he could have returned to Somerset during September 1851
Thank you all very much for your help so far,

Mick

[gray_marian]

#1,Hello Michael, nothing located in FMP but the spelling of Seer varies on there and Ancestry. I'm surmising Joesph was BORN around 1831?? WHERE in the UK? There are hundreds of J. Seer's/Syer/Sayer/Sear ect listed on crew lists some are European. Did he have a middle name?
Cannot see the one Hugh is referring to as yet. Nearest I have found is a Lighthouse keeper

[Hugh]

Hello Mick,

What is the signifcance of 'William Henry Parr' the only mention of him in the thread is your #12. Am I missing something, I thought we were looking for Joseph Seer?

For Marian - try here: Joseph Seer - UK, Apprentices Indentured in Merchant Navy, 1824-1910 - Ancestry.co.uk
It may or may not be him but I cannot look further. Thanks

Regards
Hugh

[Doc Vernon]

I was also confused Hugh?
Cheers

[gray_marian]

Thank you Hugh

Name: Joseph Seer
Age: 16
Birth Year: abt 1831
Registration or Indenture Date: 27 Jul 1847
Vessel: Mallabar
No of Register Ticket:386,345
Term for which bound: 5mths

[Michael Davis]

Sorry everyone, I've rushed my previous posts a bit and not made myself very clear. I'll explain a bit more.

I'm writing a book based around a 16 year old girl called Sarah Watts who was raped and murdered at a farmhouse in Frome Somerset in 1851 while her parents were away at the market, the farm was ransacked and robbed. Three well known local villains were put on trial at Taunton but acquitted and there the matter rested until 10 years later when a local man named Joseph Seer ( born Jan 1830) walked into Frome police court and confessed to the crime.

Seer had just been discharged from the army as mentally unfit. He was put on trial for murder but when the police and his solicitor carried out more investigations they discovered that he had been signed on as an apprentice to the East India Company and had sailed off on to Bombay on the Malabar in July 1847 for a period of 5 years and could not have been in the country at the time (1851). You have seen the Apprentice list on Ancestry from that date.

The defence supported this with two letters, one from the office of the shipping agent Richard Green which contain a number of factual inaccuracies like his height, address of his mother, length of service etc. and another from the India Office which again gives his length of apprenticeship as 7 rather than 5 years.

I am trying to find out firstly, if there is any possible way that he could have broken his time as an apprentice and been back in Somerset at the time of the murder and secondly, find out anything else about his life for the purposes of the book. From the Malabar it is reported that he joined a ship called the 'Rosebud of Newcastle' in 1855 he returned to Frome before joining the army at Bristol and being invalided out via Military Lunatic Asylum, Fort Pitt, Chatham in 1861. (do their records still exist?)

I have been through Ancestry and FMP, the National Archives don't have anything of interest, nor do the British Library. If the East India Company ceased keeping record in 1832 that cuts them out. Do the files of Richard Green still exist? Is it possible that records of apprenticeships are still kept somewhere? What would he have been apprenticed as? I don't remember seeing apprenticeships in the RN, was the system different here?
My ancestor was press-ganged into the Royal Navy and I managed to trace him day to day through many ships for 14 years at Key, did the merchant navy keep similar logs of its ships?

I hope that this have given a bit more background. I am looking for ideas on where to search next basically, thanks for all your help so far,

Mick

[gray_marian]

#17, Well well well the plot thickens! The three records that I noted were:
1, 1861 Sept 17th, Joseph was remanded then discharged on a charge of wilful murder, no mention of rape.

2, 1873, July 23rd, at Frome, charged with being drunk & disorderly.

3, another Lunacy record, admitted again Lincoln as a pauper in 1878 dying there 21yrs later.

Never for a moment did I think this was "yer man". The sites below may be of interest /helpful? Not sure if you have them.

1,Logs, Agreements and Crew Lists of British Registered Ships(link is external)

2,Seamen on British Censuses 1841-1891(link is external)

3,Merchant Navy Apprentices(link is external)Crew Lists of the British Merchant Navy - 1915(link is external), from the National Maritime Museum

4,British British Maritime History(link is external) - A set of guides to what is available to those looking into merchant mariners', naval officers, and seagoing servants of the East India Company, by Len Barnett.

5,The British Library guidance on India Office records on the Maritime Service(link is external)

6,Registration of merchant ships 1786-1994(link is external)

7,Looking for records of an apprentice or master(link is external)

8,Merchant seamen serving up to 1857: further research(link is external)


Sorry none transferring here, but can email if you wish

[Michael Davis]

That's great Marian, many thanks I will try out each of them.
He was also on the "Rosebud of Newcastle" which I can't find anywhere so if you have any ideas...
You have found the correct newspaper mentions, there are a few more, he once got 7 days for stealing a thimble but that seems to be his only real crime, all the others seem to involve getting drunk and making a prat of himself. I found the Lincolnshire Asylum reference it might well be him as I can't find him anywhere else but no proof as yet.
If you are interested in the murder, the original trial it took place in Taunton September/October 1851. Type in Woodlands Murder or Frome Murder or Maggs, Sparrow & Hurd Bath Chronicle are probably the best reports,

Thanks again and I'll let you know what I find,

Mick

[Doc Vernon]

Don't know if this is the Ship!
Rosebud SS (1883~1896)



general
nationality: british
purpose: transport
type: cargo ship
propulsion: steam
date built: 1883
status:
live live

details
tonnage: 1038 grt
dimensions: 70 x 9.8 x 4.7 m
material: iron
engine: 2-cyl. compound engine (NE Mar. Eng. Co. Ltd., Newcastle), 134 nhp
power: 134 n.h.p.
yard no.: 76
IMO/Off. no.: 87483
about the loss
cause lost: charges/explosives
other reasons: scuttled
date lost: 20/03/1917

And this is another but a Schooner?
arrival: schooner Rosebud







Origin: Adelaide
Destination: Melbourne 1852 Mar 26