Discharge Book numbering from WW 2 to 1972 for British seamen

[j.sabourn]

Best one to answer that question would be the ships architect, if couldn’t get a hold of ,in the meantime the masters decision is final, whether you like it or not. JS

[Ivan Cloherty]

Although I FWE, I thought this may be of interest - on the subject the vessel Bencruachan (post 400) it nothing to with an incompetent Master, the vessel was going about her business in moderate weather when she fell victim to a rogue wave 100 feet in height whilst transiting the the S E Coast of South Africa and taking advantage of the Agulhas current. This area is noted for rogue waves that appear out of nowhere and travel at speeds of up to 35 knots, the only warning you get is that the vessel falls into a very deep trough just prior to the wave appearing, there is no time for evasive action. Many vessels have fallen victim to these waves, one German bulker losing its bow and hull including #1 hatch but managed to make port. They are more frequent around the 100 fathom line, which is not easily avoided and can have little bearing anyway as the Agulhas current spreads its effects over a 3500 sq km area

[happy daze john in oz]

Ivan, any one who sailed around the cape in Southa Africa would be aware of the 'Cape Rollers'.
Water looking so calm, but under it was going like mad.
The sea can at times be very deceptive.
Similar across the Great Australian Bight, can be worse than the Chanell and the bay, and many other stretches of water.

[Doc Vernon]

Those Cape Rollers when going full on , are some of the worst conditions , recall so many times how sick the Bloods got going through there at times. But mostly it was Calm Waters!
Bay of Biscay too as all know can be trecherous at times, been through there a few times in hellish conditions, recall one time especially when our Ship was so close in colliding with a Tanker in Pitch dark! Huge waves pounding the Ship and all hell broke loose! First time and last time i can say i was a wee bit on the edge ! LOL
But then thee is also just the opposite at times there when i also recall the Magnificence of the Dolldrums, where the Sea is like a Mirror! Not a ripple for Miles its really an awesome sight as many will know too!

The Sea is a Monster and an Angel!!

[Ivan Cloherty]

John and Vernon, those are normal bad weather situations and unpleasant, but the Aguhla wave is something quite different and is experienced whilst in moderate weather with little or no chance of avoiding it, I believe Kong in one of his posts may have experienced it.

[j.sabourn]

Did Brian blame it for one of his falls Ivan ? JS

[Jim R Christie]

Although I FWE, I thought this may be of interest - on the subject the vessel Bencruachan (post 400) it nothing to with an incompetent Master, the vessel was going about her business in moderate weather when she fell victim to a rogue wave 100 feet in height whilst transiting the the S E Coast of South Africa and taking advantage of the Agulhas current. This area is noted for rogue waves that appear out of nowhere and travel at speeds of up to 35 knots, the only warning you get is that the vessel falls into a very deep trough just prior to the wave appearing, there is no time for evasive action. Many vessels have fallen victim to these waves, one German bulker losing its bow and hull including #1 hatch but managed to make port. They are more frequent around the 100 fathom line, which is not easily avoided and can have little bearing anyway as the Agulhas current spreads its effects over a 3500 sq km area

At the time of the incident it was most definitely not "moderate weather"; her own deck logbook had recorded windspeeds of Force 11.
The engine room staff stated afterwards that they had asked the Master to slow down as their machinery was struggling with the conditions - he refused. The Master concerned was the most senior Master in the Ben Line fleet at the time and was on the homeward leg of his retirement voyage with the vessel running late; they had been due to bunker in Durban but this was cancelled due to port congestion, hence a sprint to the Cape to bunker and make up time.

When she hit the wave concerned - or more to the point fell into a hole - she was making 20 knots (as estimated by her OOW at the time, the 2nd mate), her speed was such that at the time of impact she was surfing over waves and when she hit, her forepart was near fully out of the water. Her physical situation and her excessive speed for the conditions put her in the worst possible position to deal with that wave.

What saved her was twofold; her two fore holds had a cargo of Latex, plus between number two and three was a bunker tank with full height watertight bulkheads either side, had that not been the case then due to the excessive damage she suffered she'd have otherwise sunk like a stone and it's doubtful if anyone would have known her story.

So it's most certainly arguable that the Bencruachan drama was caused by a man with four stripes who should have known better.

N.B. I have a slight personal connection with the incident. An old shipmate of mine from Lewis was 3/O in Carronbank which was in the vicinity at the time and because of the conditions her Master had decided to heave to. My friend was on watch and saw a ship coming up fast from astern - this being a few hours before Bencruachan's incident - he then called the Master to the bridge. Bencruachan passed them about a mile off, smashing into every wave at speed and pitching heavily. The Master's words were along the lines of "look at that f***** idiot". A few hours later their R/O reported the distress calls coming through on 500khz. The weather conditions were such that they were in no position to help.

[Jim R Christie]

Best one to answer that question would be the ships architect, if couldn’t get a hold of ,in the meantime the masters decision is final, whether you like it or not. JS

John,
Your opinion may be different to mine on this matter, but whilst I have sailed with many Masters whom I have infinitely admired and respected I can't think of one for whom that respect would translate into me putting my life on the line just because I didn't want to upset them by questioning something I thought they were doing that was foolhardy.
When I first ascended to a "godlike position" - as one of the old Bank Line wallahs put it - I made it quite clear to my subordinates that I expected exactly the same of them; i.e. if you think I'm doing something stupid then bloody well say so. Being a mere human being and therefore not infallible there's always the possibility (however remote!) that I've missed something which others have not.
Of course in modern times we've got a bull***t buzzword phrase for that, we now call it "Bridge Team Management". Whilst I might believe that a large chunk of that is total nonsense it does have some sensible points.
I'll be the first to admit that I was generally always very lucky in whom I sailed with. The first time I had to have a "quiet word" with an Old Man (when I was mate in a Bank boat) was with a lovely old fella whom we sadly found out later on was actually in the early stages of dementia. When I had a word with him over a particular decision he was thankfully in one of his more lucid moments; the poor fellow was only in his early 50s but was sadly already exhibiting some rather erratic decision making.
That saga was a particularly difficult watershed and eye-opener for me when it came to realising the need to "speak up" when required and potentially act accordingly as you could never know what was going on with the other fella.

[j.sabourn]

I have no idea of your experience past present or future , most people put out where they are coming from but your cv seems to be lacking , another mystery man maybe ?. I to have as you say told masters what I think of them to their face and called them incompetent . Usually for other things beside weather . You might just as well argue about climate change . Everyone on a ship seems at times to know better than the person doing the job so I withhold any criticism and answers to their comments in abeyance . If they are afeared for their life due to heavy weather and not trusting the master my advice would be to change that job and do something more satisfying to their intellect. Or at least change ships. I walked off a ship in Japan for something similar as considered the ship unseaworthy cost me a lot of money , am not proud of it, but would do the same again , the ship went to the scrapyard shortly after , if I had waited another 6 months. Cheers JS

[Ivan Cloherty]

[QUOTE=Jim R Christie

N.B. I have a slight personal connection with the incident. An old shipmate of mine from Lewis was 3/O in Carronbank which was in the vicinity at the time and because of the conditions her Master had decided to heave to. My friend was on watch and saw a ship coming up fast from astern - this being a few hours before Bencruachan's incident - he then called the Master to the bridge. Bencruachan passed them about a mile off, smashing into every wave at speed and pitching heavily. The Master's words were along the lines of "look at that f***** idiot". A few hours later their R/O reported the distress calls coming through on 500khz. The weather conditions were such that they were in no position to help.[/QUOTE]

Then Jim, I bow to your superior personal knowledge, I can only go by the reports as written.rgds