Understanding a seamans identity document

[Errol Chandler]

Thank you. That is excellent information and I will be following it....this exercise is becoming more and more interesting as I delve into events of about 90 years ago and so many people, such as members of this site, have contributed hugely. Tiny scraps of info have prised open what were previously shut doors.
I have an investigation underway (in Foreign Office archives) into his time as a Bloodhound (Kings Messenger) for the Foreign Office during WW1 and the Russian revolution......and that is really throwing up details I (and the family) never even had any inkling of.
Once this research is completed I will prepare an essay on it and anyone that might be interested,or might have helped in the research, will be welcome to read it.

[David Snook]

Hi Errol, Hugh
I think Hugh has a good point to go for the 1918 crew list and agreements for ON 135315.(if you can afford it). I have noticed on looking at crew lists for 1917 and 1918 that there was an increasing tendency for the Discharge A number to be included with the seaman details. After September 1918 the Superintendents at each Mercantile Marine Office put pressure on the masters to make sure that the Identity Certificate No (or RS2 No) was written down instead. I have seen a number of letters of apologies from masters who didnt do this and have appeared to be reprimanded.

I did a quick check on possible Chandlers on the FMP site but there didnt appear to be any post 1921.

I would suggest a delay in going to Southampton until you have a plausible Dis A No because they will go over the same ground as FMP and forenames and surnames are changing.
best wishes
David

[Errol Chandler]

Thank you. On his CR 10 No. 383619 the Dis A No. is 61123. Would that be enough?

[Doc Vernon]

Just as a small addition to Hugh's always good advice,here is the page for the Crew Lists if ordering from Canada!
If Emailing to that address,please do contact a Tanya McDonald who is the Archivist for that Section,she is indeed very helpfull!
You can mention my name if you wish that referred you!
ie She knows me as Mr MacDonald !
I have had many dealings with her for myself and many others as well!
Cheers and good hunting!

mha@mun.ca.


Ordering Copies of Crew Agreements

[David Snook]

Thank you. On his CR 10 No. 383619 the Dis A No. is 61123. Would that be enough?

Hi Errol
I suspect that the discharge number quoted has lost a digit. 61123 was issued around 1900-01 when he was six.
Southampton have the originals of the copies on the FMP site plus a few extra that are not covered there.
Many of the photos there are wonderful and you may prefer to get a copy from them.
If you ask them to search they will turn up the CR10 card again. They may find a CR2 card for voyages but because they can only search these cards by Discharge A number I suspect you may get a card for a different person at least ten years older. I suspect that there may not be a CR1 card for him. Post 1921 these cards were created when the existing discharge book was filled up or lost. There are 42 voyage slots on the discharge books issued before 1916-1917 and 60 slots for later ones. He may not have reached 42 if he was ashore for much of WW1 and left the sea in the 1920s.
best wishes
David

[Errol Chandler]

Thank you, that gives a good lead to further enquiries....on such small things as a dropped digit a search can fail!
(Not even Nelson's navy would have had him as a 6 year old!)

[Errol Chandler]

I have found this to be very useful:

Looking for records of a merchant seaman serving after 1917 | The National Archives

[Ray Buck]

Gentlemen
I have been asked by Errol to post an email that he sent which will help keep everyone intrested informed

Copy below
Ray

Hello Ray,
Thank you for your email and interest.

Yes, I have queried the facts in much the same way as you have.
I have copies of the 1901 and 1911 census documents.
I also have his birth certificate which states his father was a gas engineer in Mold, Wales, as do the census forms of 1901 and 1911 which both show that he was still a gas engineer, but by then in London.

I have now established that the Singer Sewing machine connection had nothing to do with sewing machines as such....but actually involved him working as an engineer for Singer when they were building cotton mills in Russia....I presume that the mills would have been powered by gas, so a gas engineer was required in order to build the places.

I have established that Leslie accompanied his father and did attend school in Kiev, where he became fluent in Russian.
The Russian period lasted for about 5 years between the two census takings....I believe from the later half of 1904 to late in 1909 or early 1910.

The child that died was called Drucilla (not Priscilla). She died in Westminster, London on 9th October 1905, aged 8 years and 5 months.
I understand that her illness meant that the mother did not accompany her husband to Russia but remained in the UK with the younger children.

Leslie joined the Boys Service of the RN on 18 May 1910 (I have his service
record) so they must have returned from Russia a few months before.

He went awol from Victory 1, Portsmouth (a shore establishment for training and mustering) on 23rd November 1910, just two weeks before his 17th birthday, and was missing until 'recovered' by the RN on 23 February 1912.
The service record notes that after being 'recovered from desertion' he
was 'not cleared for further service' and presumably was punished and discharged.
The service record does not make this clear as there are three lines of writing which are very much a scrawl and unreadable.

The 1911 census was taken on the nights of 31 March and 1 April 1911 He was missing for 15 months....which included the 1911 census during which he was mistakenly entered on the census as being with his family... but then crossed off and recorded as 'At Sea'.
Presumably he had run away to sea and not touched a UK port again until being 'recovered'.

I was 13 when he died in 1957, so I did not really get to question him.
However my older brothers (we are 5 sons of Leslie, I being the youngest) recall him telling them snippets about Russia and they also recall him doing his party piece...the Russian Cossack dance...you know the one where they squat on the toes, fold arms across the chest and kick their feet forward!
Apparently he was pretty good at it!
My mother, deceased in 1971, definitely knew that he spoke Russian I do remember his very Russian habit of drinking tea from a tall glass, and never from a cup.

He also told my brothers a little about regular trips on the Trans-Siberian railway in Russia as a Greyhound.
I have established that Greyhound was the nickname given to the Diplomatic couriers that carried documents between diplomatic posts, their official name was Kings Messengers (now,of course, Queen Messengers).
I have put a request in to the Foreign Office to try and access records but am having to jump through hoops in the process!

It is all slowly emerging and I can only regret that I did not have the foresight to question him myself!

I will keep you informed of further progress and I would appreciate any assistance or thoughts you may have.
Regards
Errol Chandler
Somerset.

[Tony Morcom]

What an amazing story that is unfolding here for you Errol

[Ivan Cloherty]

Quite agree Tony, this site never fails to impress, both with the expertise available and the history or stories it reveals