To Kick Start this!

[Neil Morton]

Seeing Keith's quote of the day has prompted me to read this interesting thread from the start and I find one question raised re" how the the "Red Duster" became our flag", remains unanswered.
Now I dont say this is "gospel truth";however I read somewhere that in the 1700's in the days of Nelson, Howe, Collingwood et al the Royal Navy comprised 3 fleets each with a responsibility for various theatres.They were the Red, the Blue, and the White.Each with its own Admiral designated Admiral of the blue,red,or white. When it was decided that the whole shebang be amalgamated under the White Ensign the Red Ensign was ceremoniously awarded to the merchant ships of that time and has continued to this day. Do not ask me for dates or what happened to the Blue flag, maybe some one out there can confirm this .
All the best lads Mort.

[Keith at Tregenna]

WIKEPEDIA MAY HELP A BIT ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ensign

This may help a bit - RE: White ensign, but helpful -

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/training...-white-ensign/

K.

[Joe Doyle]

Hi Vernon. All you ever want to know about the BMN is on Wikipedia. Go to contents and click on historyand bobs ur uncle Cheers Joe

[Doc Vernon]

Hi Mort.Keith and Joe
Well must say that this is getting interesting,and thanks to all who have thus far put in some info!
I wil certainly look up the Wikpedia Link and see what i come up with!
Again thank you Lads!
Cheers

[Colin Hawken]

Mort,the RFA Ships fly the Blue Ensign. Only just come across this thread.

[Ivan Cloherty]

In my time at sea 1950-1960's any MN ship which had a Master and five other crew members regardless of rank who were members of the RNVR was entitled to fly the Blue Ensign. We flew the Blue Ensign on "Salinas" during Suez saga in 56 and we were not an RFA ship.

During the "National Service" days a lot of crew members joined the RNVR as didn't want to join the army if the left the MN before they were 26 but could still be called to the colours until age 36 if in the RNVR

I believe some companies volunteered their cadets for the RNVR!!!!!!!!!

Rules may have changed since then though as believe RNVR no longer exists

Regards

Ivan R611450

[Neil Morton]

Thanks for that Ivan it seems as though the book I read got the facts right.Cheers Mort.

[Doc Vernon]

This Link from Wikpedia has a lot of info refarding the Red Duster and its origin!
Mind you there is still the question!
The precise date of its first appearance ???
Cheers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ensign

[Keith at Tregenna]

Would this help: ?

Red Duster, Another name for the Red Ensign, which has been the flag of the Merchant Navy since 1864

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/d...p/glossary.asp

Also:

Proclamation for Use of the Flag (1801)

The Second Royal Proclamation that followed the 1801 Act for the Union of Great Britain and Ireland included the following:-

"And to the End that none of Our Subjects may presume, on board their Ships, to wear our Flags, Jacks, and Pendants, Which, according to ancient Usage, have been appointed as a Distinction to Our Ships, or any Flags, Jacks, or Pendants in Shape and Mixture of Colours so far resembling Ours as not to be easily distinguished therefrom, We do, with the Advice of Our Privy Council, hereby strictly charge and command all Our Subjects whatsoever, that they do not presume to wear in any of their Ships or Vessels, Our Jack, commonly called the Union Jack, nor any Pendants, nor any such Colours as are usually borne by Our Ships, without particular Warrant for their so doing from Us, or Our High Admiral of Great Britain, or the Commissioners for executing the Office of High Admiral for the Time being: And We do hereby also further Command all Our loving Subjects, that without such Warrant as aforesaid, they presume not to wear on board their Ships or Vessels any Flags, Jacks, Pendants, or Colours, made in imitation of, or resembling Ours, or any Kind of Pendant whatsoever, or any other Ensign than the Ensign, described on the Side or Margin hereof which shall be worn instead of the Ensign before this Time usually worn in Merchant Ships;"

http://www.fotw.net/flags/gb-ensr.html

Originally there were three Royal Navy squadrons, of the Red, White and Blue, and they took these colours from those of the Union Jack.

The division was made in the 1680s, because the Red Ensigns of England and Scotland had already been established as merchant flags a Red Ensign with the Union in the canton became the merchant flag of Great Britain upon Union in 1707. This led to confusion as to whether the ship was a merchantman or a member of the red squadron?

In 1864 it was decided to end this confusion. As a result the White Ensign was reserved to the Royal Navy, the Blue Ensign undefaced to the Royal Naval Reserve and defaced with the appropriate departmental or territorial badge to government service, and the Red Ensign to the 'merchant navy'.

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/archiv...hp?t-2825.html

?

K.

[Duncan McKelvie]

One other pouint of note on thuis fascinating subject. A ship could sail with out a captain/master as it was expceted that the cheif officer would also have a masters certificate. However the ship could not sail withour a registered ships cook even if it was a pssenger ship with head chef and who knows how many cooks.

Yes indeed. Thus on Home Trade vessels of ......not so old, the vessel could be tied up if there was no cook's ticket on board if the crew numbered over 8 - unless you had the individual agreement of each man to agree to sail without one. I know, I have done this on more than one occasion on supply boats in the 70's when the cook went off on the toot or quit without notice. The trick was to ask each man individually.

Interesting fact ref the term "Merchant Navy" [ I quote Capt Richard Woodman and his excellent series of books on the history of our profession] The Merchant Service became known as the "Merchant Navy" following a remark made after the First World War by King George 5th to the effect of "and this country owes a tremendous debt to my Merchant Navy". It is said that he was called George 5th because his wife, Mary of Merck, was the other 4/5ths! That would have been about 1920 and was around the time when post war reality set in and the conditions for the average seafarer became even worse than before the war, wages were cut, berths were hard to get and this was all against a background of near revolution in Britain. Warships were stationed in the Clyde with weaponry trained ashore and ready to shell Glasgow. Tanks were in the streets of Glasgow, Liverpool etc. Several years later the government in a desperate attempt to raise recognition and professional status created the Honourable Company of Master Mariners under the leadership of Sir Robert Burton-Chadwick, ExC. This was to form a livery company as a 'non-belligerent' association. MMSA and others existed at that time and also another one organised by the redoubtable Capt. Coombes of Navigators and General fame. It has become known as the Merchant Navy ever since and as British ships carried over half of all world trade until 194, Britain was the significant voice. Every 'Merchant Navy' in the world has to some extent or other copied our model, with varying degrees of success.
Ref a line in another post on this thread...........striking when actually at sea was not allowed under the Merchant Shipping Act and could be classed as mutiny among other things. All of the vessels who suffered through the seaman's strike in 1966 went on strike after securely and safely tying up. The strike lasted 6 (7?) weeks over the summer until Harold Wilson declared "I have smashed the Seamen". They had practically no support from any quarter and that was the start of the rot. Fast forward to the mid 70's and Sheikh Zayed Ahmed Yammani tripling the price of oil - bunkers - overnight and the job was complete. Long established family companies who had helped establish many of the banks were foreclosed on by the same institutions and ships were laid up left right and centre. The dreadful accountant surfaced and took aim at the easiest and most conspicuous target - the Marine Superintendent. He was a first casualty. quality and safety were the inevitable followers of that and British crews became an expensive luxury and then a rarity. The Marine Super made a comeback on the back of ISM and the move towards ISO systems and we are where we are now.