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Graham Payne
19th October 2009, 03:28 PM
Hi All
just got back from a cruise to the " Black Sea" on P&O's Aurora, only 4 Coxswains ( fancy new name for AB's I was told ) the rest of deck crew are Asian.There was at least 6 Deckman & 6 Quatermasters on the old P&O ships, also on the old " O " boats, "Orcades" etc there was at least 20 or more AB's plus numerous DHU's. Also we passed the largest Container ship afloat 170,000 ton "????? Maersk" which carries only 13 crew
How times change!!!
See you
Graham :D

happy daze john in oz
20th October 2009, 05:23 AM
G'day graham, not only have the numbers changed but also in many cases the title. I came across some I had never even thought of, like first officer safety, Cheif steward now the Hotel manager, and that Mearsk ship you saw can actualy be run by a crew of only 8 if required.

jimmys
20th October 2009, 09:23 AM
When a vessel is first registered with an administration and before it can sail a safe manning document has to be issued. In UK the Marine and Coastguard Agency issue this document.
This is supposed to be the "Safe manning document" as against operational manning. But off course the operational manning has been driven down until it is now at the "Safe Manning Level".

It can be at Master plus two Deck Officers, three certificated seamen, Cook and Chief Engineer and Second Engineer. Other than that the vessel is filled with anyone with Certificates from any country on the white list.Thousands of certificates from countries with limited training facilities.To mention a few,Vanuatu, Tuvalu, Tonga and Kiribati

When you inspect a major passenger unit you are lucky if you can get one certificated person at a Muster Station or a lifeboat. When you ask crew members about the equipment they have no idea.

regards
jimmy

Graham Payne
20th October 2009, 01:00 PM
Thanks for that Jimmy,
seems the old Board of Trade Lifeboat Certificate has flown out of the window and now anything goes.

Graham Payne
20th October 2009, 01:06 PM
John
another one on "Aurora" was the CHIEF ENVIORMENTAL OFFICER !!!
Bloody Madness. Mental being the operative word. In my opinion.
Be Lucky

Gulliver
21st October 2009, 05:53 PM
Hi Brian(Capt.Kong(,Yes,I did see that programme.I actually did write about it on another thread,,but it probably got lost amongst all the black puddings,Aussie insults and Spam-shots! (Joking):)

Here(again) should anyone be interested....

http://www.merchant-navy.net/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif Quest TV.....EMMA MAERSK
For those interested in Ships??(!).this week's Mighty Ships episode on UK Quest TV a voyage on EMMA MAERSK,One of the world's largest container vessels.

Quest Channel38 Freeview) and SKY TV Channel 167
 
M.V.EMMA MAERSK
Join the Emma Maersk as she sets out on a two-week voyage from the Far East to Europe, via the Suez Canal - braving rough seas, bad weather and threat of pirates.

Tues.20th Oct @2100
Weds.21st Oct. @1400 and 2200
Sun. 25th Oct. @ 1700


Just a reminder of some details about Emma Maersk,with a typical future forthcoming voyage with dates and turnround times-not that there's much time for going ashore if you're on duty!
Name: Emma Maersk Owner: A.P.Moller-Maersk Group. Builder: Odense Steel ShipyardLtd;Denmark.Homeport:Taarbaek;Denmark. Identification: Callsign: OYGR2 .General characteristics :Type: Container Ship. Tonnage: 170,974 GT
55,396 NT: Length: 397 metres (1,300 ft) LOA : Beam: 56 metres (180 ft) Draft: 15.5 metres (51 ft) Depth: 30 metres (98 ft) (deck edge to keel): Propulsion: 80 MW (109,000 hp) Wartsila 14RT-Flex96c plus 30 MW (40,000 hp) from fiveCaterpillar 8M32 .Speed: over 25.5 knots (47.2 km/h; 29.3 mph) Capacity: 156,907 metric tons (DWT)
11,000+ TEU
1000 TEU (Reefers) Crew: 13, with room for 30.

Engine and Hull

The Emma Mærsk is powered by a Wartsila-Sulzer 14RTFlex96-C engine, currently the world's largest single diesel unit, weighing 2,300 tons and capable of 109,000 horsepower (82 MW)The ship has several features to protect the environment. This includes exhaust heat recovery and cogeneration.. The exhaust gases of the engine are passed through a steam generator which then powers electrical generators to generate electricity. This creates an electrical output equivalent to about 12% of the main engine power output. Some of this steam is also used directly as shipboard heat. Instead of biocides, used by much of the industry to keep barnacles off the hull, a special silicone-based paint is used.This increases the ship's efficiency by reducing drag while also protecting the ocean from biocides that may leak. The silicone paint covering the part of the hull below the waterline is credited for lowering the water drag enough to save 1200 tons of fuel per year.
 
A Typical Forthcoming Voyage Itinerary
ROTTERDAM APM Terminals Rotterdam 28 Dec 2009 11:00 to 29 Dec 2009 19:00(32h)
BREMERHAVEN North Sea Terminal 30 Dec 2009 14:00 to01 Jan 2010 06:00(40h)
ALCECIRAS Algeciras - ML Terminal 08 Jan 2010 20:00 to 09 Jan 2010 20:00 (24h)
SUEZ CANAL Canal Zone Terminal 13 Jan 2010 19:00to 14 Jan 2010 17:00 (22h)
TANJUNG PELEPAS(Singapore) ***Not Calling this Voyage ******
YANTIAN YanTian Intl. Container Terminal 04 Feb 2010 20:00 to 05 Feb 2010 16:00 (20h)
HONG KONG Hong Kong / Modern Terminals Ltd 05 Feb 2010 23:00 to06 Feb 2010 13:00 (14h)
SHANGHAI Yangshan, Shengdong Terminal 08 Feb 2010 09:00 to09 Feb 2010 09:00 (24h)
NINGBO Ningbo Terminal 10 Feb 2010 07:00 to10 Feb 2010 23:59 (17h)
XIAMEN Xiamen Songyu Container Terminal 12 Feb 2010 01:00 to 12 Feb 2010 17:00 (16h)
HONG KONG Hong Kong / Modern Terminals Ltd 13 Feb 2010 14:00 to14 Feb 2010 11:00 (21h)
YANTIAN YanTian Intl. Container Terminal 14 Feb 2010 16:00to 15 Feb 2010 11:00 (19h)
TANJUNG PELEPAS(Singapore) ***** Not Calling this Voyage *******
SUEZ CANAL Canal Zone Terminal 28 Feb 2010 01:00 to 28 Feb 2010 17:00 (16h)
ALGECIRAS Algeciras - ML Terminal 04 Mar 2010 08:00 to05 Mar 2010 14:00 (30h)
ROTTERDAM APM Terminals Rotterdam 08 Mar 2010 11:00
 
(69 Days Round Voyage)'


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So,an interesting programme,Brian,but it would have been nice to know more about the navigational and communications equipment,heard more of the crew's stories,more about the training and qualifications of all personnel,and what salaries they earned etc......


These ship's certainly shrink the world,and one thing is for sure.....going to sea is not like we knew it!


Gulliver

jimmys
21st October 2009, 07:10 PM
As far far as I know the minimum it can go to under the regulations is the Master and Eight crew for a deep sea ship. That was the figure muted. It is not surprising that is where they are headed at the moment.

Offshore/ north sea even lower, Master and one mate six on six off same in the engine room plus cook and two crew.
Ridicoulous!!

regards
jimmy

Gulliver
21st October 2009, 08:04 PM
Hi Jimmy.
One of the'cadets' in that documentary about Emma Maersk described himself as 'dual-role' i.e Deck/Engineering. He was about 22-24 years old I would say, so presumably he already has a degree or two under his belt?....I would think that from the time of leaving high school he's been conditioned to think of nothing but ships from that moment on.... More like a 'robot-seafarer' really ...but I guess that's what it takes now......
As you were involved with training,have you got any idea what such training would entail,both pre-sea and aboard.For example,he spent a very energetic week working with the Chief Officer inspecting virtually every container on board for leaks etc..
Regards
Davey
Brian

Hi Cap'n,just seen your post. Those guys on ships like that (apart from the 'old-style' Captain Sorensson on there)would never know what its like to sail on a real ship!

They'll have a whole different load of memories to us.....do 'robot-seafarers' have memories? :)

happy daze john in oz
22nd October 2009, 05:33 AM
In an article I read a couple of years back when she came on the scene it was K Mart in U,S, that commisioned the idea of a ship that size. She can do Japan to U.S. in five days and can carry perishable goods in this time frame. One proposal on that run was to provide the crew with frozen microwave measl thus no need for a cook.

Gulliver
22nd October 2009, 08:46 PM
Makes sense,John,that sounds the best way to go,i.e pre-prepared frozen microwaveable meals for each crew member to cook as required.......but no,the programme showed a Cook preparing the no-doubt high quality scoff.
We know she can operate(theoretically with 8 total crew if necessary(,but more usually it's 13.
On that particular voyage for the documentary it was about 20. Accommodation is provided for up to 30 crew when required,which could cover owners,technical staff ,trainees etc.I suppose.

My first ship,a 10,000 ton general cargo ship had total of 40 crew!(1970)
My last,a 166,000 tonne bulk/ore carrier had 24 total crew.(1990)

Emma Maersk can operate with 8......Good Luck to all who sail in her,and her 8 sisters...
And to all other ships......keep out of their way!:)

Neville Roberts
23rd October 2009, 03:55 PM
I did the maiden voyage on the Oriana , and had over 1200 crew and 2200 passengers, even the ships of today have more passengers but I think they have much less crew.:cool::rolleyes:

happy daze john in oz
24th October 2009, 05:24 AM
Neville a ruise ship today with capacity for 2,000 bloods would only have a crew of about 450. How times have changed.

jimmys
24th October 2009, 03:51 PM
Hi all,

The dual certification is allowed in STCW ninety something, I cant remember the date. It is the Safety training and certification of the watch-keepers.
In the HND course which was followed at Glasgow for both Bridge and Engine a lot of the subjects were common. Mathematics, Physics, Naval architecture, some partially common, electrics and electronics and, radio,radar. It left specific subjects such as Maintenance engineering, navigation, ship handling, Coll Regs,
bridge and engine room watch keeping not common. This left the dual apprentice with some remedial subjects but a long way from all of them. A mix of sea time was necessary and I think the extra was three months but I am not sure now.
The main policy of the GovUK at the time was that if a ship needed a second mate and a third engineer one man could not replace the two. What was allowed was if the 3/e signed off the dual qualified 2/o could replace him but a new qualified 2/o was required or vice verso. This put the plans of the shipping companies up the spout. The main thrust was off course to replace two men with one.
I am now retired and I cant say if this is still so.

Its a fallacy that there is a great difference between both departments!!! When both Departments were in the early months severe remedial work was required due to lack of Secondary Education. Nobody will admit to having it in later years in the industry. Oh how they forget.

regards
jimmy

Doc Vernon
18th August 2010, 05:28 AM
Evenlighting you are now blocked from posting futher!
Admin Asst/Moderator

robpage
18th August 2010, 10:03 AM
If I remember correctly , I think BP did some experiments with this in the early 1970's , and I don't think it was very successful . But I expect some of the old BP guys may remember it better than I can