Seaman Ship

[Lou Barron]

They say that being on deck on the troopships as a young seaman you do not learn enough about work on deck that maybe so as regards to working on winches and so forth .But on the ship i was on for three trips i was to learn a lot .We use to have lessons three or four times a week .It was taken by a old quartermaster he had been at sea a very long time he was to learn us young guys knots ,rope and wire splices boxing the compass also the different flags of the international code .It was later on that when i was a pow and working in Loyang we was to work in the ex navy shed for the Japs that i also learnt a bit more about wire splicing from a ex survivor off the Hms Repulse he showed me the navy wire splice as the one i had learnt before hand was called the board of trade splice .Maybe some of you guys have some ideas on this subject .I also meant to mention on the troopship we also learnt about the boatswain chair

[Keith Tindell]

Hi Lou,
The *board of trade* wire splice was the one we were taught at sea, if i remember correctly, you put the first strand through 3 lays then 2 lays with the next strand, then through 1 strand, the other 3 were then followed up the wire through 1 strand each, if that makes sense!!!. we were told the disadvantage with that splice was that it could under certain conditions twist out, but i never saw that happen ever.All brings back memories regards Keith

[John Arton]

Charles
I do not think that anyone can say that sailing on troop ships during WW2 would give you a lesser training in semanship than, say, a cargo vessel.
Seamanship to me is more than just learning spicing, rigging bosuns chairs, stages, operating hatch covers etc. etc.
Although a very important part of the job obviously, seamanship to me is as much as this plus that "feeling" that we all learnt. i.e you had the feel for the ship, you could almost foretell when theat particular wave was going to beak on board and wash down the deck, you always had one hand for youself and one for the ship which gave us a far safer working enviroment than any Health and Safety Training/check lists can ever give one of the modern generation will get. You felt the beat of the engine and even as a deck officer you could tell that there may be a problem the second you felt a change in that beat. Also in bad weather you knew when your ship was labouring and it was time to reduce speed to avoid heavy pounding, or to alter course to ease her movement and so avoid damage to the ship and cargo.
In my last years at sea I very rarely came across Deck Officers who had that feel for the ship and the number of times I had to spend hours unecessarly on the bridge in open waters just because my officers could not recognise that she was pounding too heavily and that they needed to reduce speed to avoid this pounding, is inumarable. This despite my very clear standing orders that they all signed as understanding them and my many attempts to teach them how to judge the seas and the effect on the ship, they all seemed terrified of actually touching the pitch controller or phoning the engine room to tell them to reduce speed and would just let her go on pounding until either myself, or sometimes the Chief Eng., would tell them to reduce as they were putting to much load on the engine or causing unecessary pounding. What used to frighten me even more was that if they could not reduce speed to avoid pounding, would they ever reduce speed to avoid a close quarters situation or to assess the situation in say, a crossing of traffic lane situation.
Anyway thats my view Charles, summing up seamanship is not just about spices, knots, flags etc. but encompasses a far greater and possibly a skill that cannot properly be put into words that the layman can understand, yet all of us who went to sea in our era's will understand immediatley once they saw how you went about your daily task whichever department you were in, be it deck, engine or catering.
rgds
Capt. John Arton (ret'd)

[Tony Wilding]

I think all depts eventually got the feel of the ship, how far she would roll befor you made your next move, was hard at times in the ER, as it was all guess work, especially when filling bearings with oil, or carrying the gash up long ladders to put over the side, but we learnt after a while, used the ships motion to your advantage, as a small boat owner i learnt to read the sea, you have to be if possible one jump ahead, was taught by local fisherman, lots of considerations to take into account regarding sea conditions, how wind against tide can effect the size of the seas, was allways better to ride the seas at an angle, do a zig zag course in a small boat, the difference in the pounding was amazing.

[Capt Bill Davies]

Charles
I do not think that anyone can say that sailing on troop ships during WW2 would give you a lesser training in semanship than, say, a cargo vessel.
Seamanship to me is more than just learning spicing, rigging bosuns chairs, stages, operating hatch covers etc. etc.
Although a very important part of the job obviously, seamanship to me is as much as this plus that "feeling" that we all learnt. i.e you had the feel for the ship, you could almost foretell when theat particular wave was going to beak on board and wash down the deck, you always had one hand for youself and one for the ship which gave us a far safer working enviroment than any Health and Safety Training/check lists can ever give one of the modern generation will get. You felt the beat of the engine and even as a deck officer you could tell that there may be a problem the second you felt a change in that beat. Also in bad weather you knew when your ship was labouring and it was time to reduce speed to avoid heavy pounding, or to alter course to ease her movement and so avoid damage to the ship and cargo.
In my last years at sea I very rarely came across Deck Officers who had that feel for the ship and the number of times I had to spend hours unecessarly on the bridge in open waters just because my officers could not recognise that she was pounding too heavily and that they needed to reduce speed to avoid this pounding, is inumarable. This despite my very clear standing orders that they all signed as understanding them and my many attempts to teach them how to judge the seas and the effect on the ship, they all seemed terrified of actually touching the pitch controller or phoning the engine room to tell them to reduce speed and would just let her go on pounding until either myself, or sometimes the Chief Eng., would tell them to reduce as they were putting to much load on the engine or causing unecessary pounding. What used to frighten me even more was that if they could not reduce speed to avoid pounding, would they ever reduce speed to avoid a close quarters situation or to assess the situation in say, a crossing of traffic lane situation.
Anyway thats my view Charles, summing up seamanship is not just about spices, knots, flags etc. but encompasses a far greater and possibly a skill that cannot properly be put into words that the layman can understand, yet all of us who went to sea in our era's will understand immediatley once they saw how you went about your daily task whichever department you were in, be it deck, engine or catering.
rgds
Capt. John Arton (ret'd)

A good summation John and one which I cannot improve on. I can particularly like the part which I have emboldened.

Brgds

Bill

[Captain Kong]

Seaman Ship
They say that being on deck on the troopships as a young seaman you do not learn enough about work on deck that maybe so as regards to working on winches and so forth .But on the ship i was on for three trips i was to learn a lot .We use to have lessons three or four times a week .It was taken by a old quartermaster he had been at sea a very long time he was to learn us young guys knots ,rope and wire splices boxing the compass also the different flags of the international code .It was later on that when i was a pow and working in Loyang we was to work in the ex navy shed for the Japs that i also learnt a bit more about wire splicing from a ex survivor off the Hms Repulse he showed me the navy wire splice as the one i had learnt before hand was called the board of trade splice .Maybe some of you guys have some ideas on this subject .I also meant to mention on the troopship we also learnt about the boatswain chair Lou.
.
. Hi Lou. you certainly would have had a good training in Seamanship on the Troopship, Duchess of Bedford, I was on her when she wa renamed Empress of France,
She had at least 16 derricks and these were up and down every few days, more so than many ships on running down to the Colonies. and swinging around in the Bosuns Chair on those very high top masts took a bit of nerve, We spliced all the cargo slings and cargo runners and many other sailorising jobs. We always used the 321,111 splice on the wire runners.
Here she is in all her glory as the Empress of France on the Western Ocean.
The second photo, I took from the mast with a 1930s Box Camera, in a great storm in 1956.

[Tony Morcom]

sailorising jobs.

What a great word Capt.

[Captain Kong]

[LEFT][/LEFT What used to frighten me even more was that if they could not reduce speed to avoid pounding, would they ever reduce speed to avoid a close quarters situation or to assess the situation in say, a crossing of traffic lane situation.] Capt J Arton.
.
.

.. Yes I agree with that statement come across it a few times.
I was on a ship sailing north when a I saw a vessel approaching, out of the Thames Estuary, on my port bow, I plotted him and it was on a collision course, I called him on VHF and asked him if he inteded to change course as we were about to collide shortly, he was the give way vessel, , A foreign voice answered. "I alter course for no one." I called back, "If you do not alter then we will collide", he says "The Captain says , alter course for no one". I say , "where is your Captain?"
"Captain in bed, he say, alter for no one".
So I said , stay as you are I will get out of your way. I did a 180 deg, alteration and went back a mile or so before resuming my course, he was then on the starboard bow heading away from me.
This was scary that people like this are `navigating`ships. If both ships were like that then a collision would definately occured.
.
.
Another situation, involving the Royal Navy....
I was anchored in the Firth of Forth on an ESSO Tanker, waiting for a berth in Grangemouth.
On my starboard side I observed a RN Minesweeper sail from Rosyth, It was heading straight for me.
I watch for a while with binocculars, wondering when he was going to alter. I could see his wheel house windows and the wheelhouse had several people in there. He was approaching fast and if he continued he would hit me amidships.
I decided to call him on VHF. I asked him what were his intentions, was he intent on hitting me or was he going to alter. He replied. "Dont you know the Rules?, you are the give way vessel, now get out of my way." I replied. If you look you will be able to see an anchor ball on my fore stay, I am at anchor. now get out of my way", I heard the words " Oh ****" the Minesweeper went hard a starboard , skidded round on one bilge keel and if I had another coat of paint he would have hit me.
Once he had cleared and past, I called the Queens Harbour Master at Rosyth and reported it, " He replied that he would reprimand him when he returned.
I alway told my Cadets , "NEVER TRUST ANYONE OUT SIDE OF THE WHEELHOUSE WINDOWS."

[John Arton]

Capt. Kong
The photo taken from the mast in 1956.
I very much doubt that any of todays modern sailors would even dream about taking such a photo as not only would they have to venture outside the warm confines of the accommodation but by the time the risk assessment had been done, stand-by crew organised, toolbox meeting held, all gear tested and assessed as fit for purpose etc. etc. the storm would have passed and you either would be sailing in calm seas.!!!!!!!!!!!
Great photo but whatever made you want to climb a nast in a raging storm just to take a photo????
Mad, bad or what.
rgds.
Capt. John Arton (ret'd)

[Captain Kong]

Hi John,
I guess I must have been Mad looking back, but at the time it was excillerating [sic] I was 21, I was invincible, I enjoyed the challenges,
I thought it would be good to show the folks back home what it was like on the Western. People always thought if you are on a passenger ship then life was wonderful, just cruising.
I think it is a great photo considering the type of camera. A Kodak Box camera which usually had to held in two hands, look into the window and then operate the shutter. Whilst clinging on with two legs. "I guess a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do" still it is a good record of a famous ship going through a western ocean winter. That is what seafaring is all about, without the `Elf and Safety ` people interfering.
Cheers
Brian.