near the end

[Lou Barron]

during the last couple of months in changi jail the japs had us digging tunnels and trenchs for the expected invasion by the brits i think it would be about the last week before the big bomb about six of us was digging one of the tunnels and what we use to do go as slow as possible the japs would scream at us speedo speedo and the japs would grab hold the shovels and picks and show us how to go so we stand back and let them go we did not mind as it was one way to have a rest but on this occasion it did not work out that way one of the japs in charge lined us up and to belt us with a bamboo stick then the rest of the japs had a go too i think it was the last time we got a hiding on the last working party halfway through the day the japs lined us up and marched us back to the jail when we got inside someone said the war is over and that is another story

[Dennis McGuckin]

Last night I watched a program on History channel depicting the US 8th air force during WW2.
It stated that they suffered over 200,000 casualties. More than the US Marines.
Got me thinking.
Has the BBC ever done a documentary on the British Merchant Navy during that time?
After all, their losses were among the highest in all the four services. I believe over 300,000 perished.
If such a program was produced, is it available?
I did see one some years ago on CTV regarding the Canadian Merchant Marine during the war.
Surely one on the British MN must be somewhere in the BBC archives!
Den.

[Captain Kong]

Hi Den,
I think our PC and Europhile Politicos want to keep quiet about the war, Forget About It, It Never Happened, We cannot upset the Germans and the Frogs. Once our generation has gone that is it.
It is all airbrushed out of history, They think in another ten years or so we will all be dead then there will be no one around to discuss it. All war memorials will then be demolished.

Cheers
Brian

[Dennis McGuckin]

Hi Brian,
Thanks for that.
A very sad reflection of our times.
Must be most upsetting for the surviving veterans and families who lost loved ones.
As you say. When we are gone there will be no one to fight for recognition of all those MN hero's.
Den.

[Neil Morton]

Hi Den, Brian and Bernard, I seem to have read recently that the total number of MN seamen lost during both World Wars was a little over 74,000. The book I read concerned the North Atlantic only. I can vouch for one thing and that is that the Anzac spirit here in NZ and Oz will never be brushed over; to see the young marching on Anzac Day proudly wearing their father's and gradfather's medals brings a tear to the eye.

[happy daze john in oz]

I have a set of DVD 'Victory at Sea', the first one has a lot of MN footage on it. Much of it from German U Boat perspective with actual footage taken from a U Boat at the point of impact of torpedo on a merchant ship. Several sections of merchant ships going down, and some in Royal Navy escort. So to answer the question, yes I do believe it would be possible to make a program about the MN during war time. Just don't let the Germans know!

[Ivan Cloherty]

Hi Den, Brian and Bernard, I seem to have read recently that the total number of MN seamen lost during both World Wars was a little over 74,000. The book I read concerned the North Atlantic only. I can vouch for one thing and that is that the Anzac spirit here in NZ and Oz will never be brushed over; to see the young marching on Anzac Day proudly wearing their father's and gradfather's medals brings a tear to the eye.

Yes Neil

The figure was nearer the 70,000 mark, this included all the seamen from Britain and the Commonwealth countries including Anzac and those volunteers from other countries who were lost at sea, Billy McGee probably has more accurate figures.

We sometimes forget that seamen were lost in other theatres of war apart from the Atlantic, which did suffer the greatest losses, but we lost a lot of ships manned by fellow seamen from the Indian Continent and Hong Kong etc, so they must not be forgotten either, lets face it there were a lot of steamships in those days which could not have moved without the shovels of the Lascars etc, and those poor buggers had probably the least chance of surviving when torpedoed, if they did survive the torpedoe then they succumbed to the cold weather and waters,(even in the Pacific), not being suitably dressed, it was not possible to stoke boilers wearing duffle coats.

So we salute all who served

Ivan

[Hugh]

The figures for Merchant Navy deaths attributed to the Second World War will never truly be known. We can only give a rough estimate.

Quote from "Merchant Shipping and the Demands of War" by Miss C B A Behrens.

"All told the deaths due directly or indirectly to the war were estimated by the Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen on 30th June 1952 as 31, 908. It is known, however, that this total is not complete and that it may be a long way removed from being so."

"In 1945 the Ministry of War Transport's Statistical Adviser, Sir William Elderton, after analysing samples of the cases of men discharged from the Merchant Navy pool in 1943 and following years, concluded that:

Though many of the men discharged would be fit for some occupation ashore, either immediately or after a few months, there is a considerable proportion that consists of permanently damaged lives and some who can have had only a few months to live. From the tabulated material it could be said that probably over 60 per cent of the men discharged in 1943 for physical reasons and about 40 per cen of those discharged in 1945 would be regarded by a life assurance company as uninsurable or insurable only on special terms."

Also it is important to understand the sources that you take the data from as some include lascar deaths some do not. Some include DEMS and T124 deaths and some do not. It's a big subject.

Billy McGee is still finding today, from his research, many deaths at sea that have not been recognised.

Regards
Hugh

[Captain Kong]

I read a long time ago that the MN had the highest casualty rate of all three Services combined. I think this was the average percentage, ie, One man in three killed in WW2 was a Merchant Seaman. not an actual figure.
Also I heard or read a while ago that Seamen who died ashore from their injuries were not included in the total number of Seafarers lost at sea thus making it more difficult to calculate a true number of WW2 deaths of Seafarers.

Brian.

[Dennis McGuckin]

Dennis,
I think the figure of British Merchant Navy losses was in the region of 30,000, not 300,000.
Regards,
Bernard

Thanks Bernard. I was waiting for someone to pick up my extra zero. Realised as soon as I hit the button.
Den.