How many seaman lost in the 2 World Wars

[robpage]

I believe that RAF Bomber Command lost 54 thousand in WW2 ?

Look at Post number 6 I have put the details in there

[happy daze john in oz]

When we look at the figures it is staggering. I am sure in the news today we will all have seen the tribute to those who died at the Somme, I think it is being displayed at the London Olympic park , 72,000+ and these are the soldiers who have no known grave. So sad.

Lewis, sadly there are soldiers, airmen and sailors all over the world with no known grave.
Even in some of the later smaller wars such as Korea there are some 850 or so British soldiers with no known grave.

[j.sabourn]

Still haven’t found the namers lost during the 14/18 war. In the book of British tramps. But interesting to see the large numbers of Tramp Companies which did exist. Where have all the trampships gone sung to music would be appropriate...
Alcyone Shipping, Alexander David and Sons, Alexander Properties, Allan Black, Ambrose Davies and Matthews, Anchor Line, Anglo- Danubian, Anning Bros.,Argonaut Navigation, Ascot Shipping, Asiatic Steam Navigation, Aviation And Shipping, Baltic Steamship, Barr Crombie, Birt Potter and Hughes, Blane Steamships, Bolton Steam, Bowrings, Bridgedale Shipping, British Empire Steel Products, Brown C.S., Brown William Atkinson, Buries Markes, Burness James and Sons, Campbell Mungo, Capper Alexander, carlbom John and Co., Cayzer Irvine, Chapman’s, Chine Shipping, Chios Shipping, Claymore Shipping, Clunies Shipping, Cockerline, Common Bros., Connell and Grace, Constantine’s, Coolham Steamship, Cory’s, Cotts Mitchell and Co., Coulouthros Ltd., Craggs and Co., Crawford Andrew, Crest Shipping, Crete Shipping, Crosby and son, Currie Line, Dalgliesh, Dalhousie, Dawson Frank, Dene Shipping, Denholm, CLarkson and co. , Dodd Thompson, Dover Navigation, Dracoulis Ltd., Dunlop Thomas, Durban Shipping Enterprises, E.R management, Embiricos S.G., Ensign Steamship. Esk Shipping, Farwent Ltd.,Wm. Fenwick, Frinton, Galbraith Pembroke, Gardiner , Glen and Co., Goulandris Bros., Ormis Shipping, Gould Walter, Haddon Steamship, Hadjillias and Co., Hadoulis J.P., , Hain Shipping, Hain Nourse, Haldin and Philips Ltd., Hall Bros., Harris and Dixon, Harrison’s of London, Harrison’s of Clyde, Haverton Shipping, Headlams, Helmville Ltd., Hendry P.D., Hogarths, Honeycombed and Co., Hudson Steamship,..... not even half way yet. These are what are considered the tramp company’s a real flock of ships and men. Well might people say whatever happened to such a seafaring country. I haven’t bothered to count just the few I have put on here , but makes one want to spew to the manners both ships and men were discarded , no matter what excuses are put forward the truth is in the pudding. We were the greatest country in the world at one time in the Shipping world. All given away as far as I am able to make out. JS.

[j.sabourn]

Still haven’t found the numbers lost during the 14/18 war. In the book of British tramps. But interesting to see the large numbers of Tramp Companies which did exist. Where have all the trampships gone sung to music would be appropriate...
Alcyone Shipping, Alexander David and Sons, Alexander Properties, Allan Black, Ambrose Davies and Matthews, Anchor Line, Anglo- Danubian, Anning Bros.,Argonaut Navigation, Ascot Shipping, Asiatic Steam Navigation, Aviation And Shipping, Baltic Steamship, Barr Crombie, Birt Potter and Hughes, Blane Steamships, Bolton Steam, Bowrings, Bridgedale Shipping, British Empire Steel Products, Brown C.S., Brown William Atkinson, Buries Markes, Burness James and Sons, Campbell Mungo, Capper Alexander, carlbom John and Co., Cayzer Irvine, Chapman’s, Chine Shipping, Chios Shipping, Claymore Shipping, Clunies Shipping, Cockerline, Common Bros., Connell and Grace, Constantine’s, Coolham Steamship, Cory’s, Cotts Mitchell and Co., Coulouthros Ltd., Craggs and Co., Crawford Andrew, Crest Shipping, Crete Shipping, Crosby and son, Currie Line, Dalgliesh, Dalhousie, Dawson Frank, Dene Shipping, Denholm, CLarkson and co. , Dodd Thompson, Dover Navigation, Dracoulis Ltd., Dunlop Thomas, Durban Shipping Enterprises, E.R management, Embiricos S.G., Ensign Steamship. Esk Shipping, Farwent Ltd.,Wm. Fenwick, Frinton, Galbraith Pembroke, Gardiner , Glen and Co., Goulandris Bros., Ormis Shipping, Gould Walter, Haddon Steamship, Hadjillias and Co., Hadoulis J.P., , Hain Shipping, Hain Nourse, Haldin and Philips Ltd., Hall Bros., Harris and Dixon, Harrison’s of London, Harrison’s of Clyde, Haverton Shipping, Headlams, Helmville Ltd., Hendry P.D., Hogarths, Honeycombed and Co., Hudson Steamship,..... not even half way yet. These are what are considered the tramp company’s a real flock of ships and men. Well might people say whatever happened to such a seafaring country. I haven’t bothered to count just the few I have put on here , but makes one want to spew to the manners both ships and men were discarded , no matter what excuses are put forward the truth is in the pudding. We were the greatest country in the world at one time in the Shipping world. All given away as far as I am able to make out. JS.

[j.sabourn]

Ref. The original query I cannot find any hard figures for the 1914/1918 merchant mariners losses , but believe they were much lower than the Second World War fatalities. 14,000 seems to be a figure I have seen somewhere, but don’t bet your shirt on it. As regards the last world war , the forward from Ian Malcolm’s book “Shipping Company Losses in the Second World War” says it all. It may have been put on site before I will faithfully reprint it here in the hope he will not mind. For anyone who has not seen. It is by Capt. Richard Woodman Elder Brethren of Trinity House.
The sacrifice in men , ships and material by the British Merchant Navy during the Second World War is almost forgotten today. It Stands alongside the losses suffered by other Mercantile marines of other nations, both allied and neutral when sailing in convoy.
Governments being transient, forget easily, but the ignorance of a British public whose present freedoms are entirely due to victory in the battle of the Atlantic , the Mediterranean and Far East , is almost egregious. Between Sept. 1939 and May 1943 the defensive operations of the Royal Navy, assisted by the rapidly expanding Royal Canadian Navy and joined by the navy of the United States, were largely futile against German U-Boats . As an officer of an escorting corvette remarked . “ All we seem able to do is pick up the survivors”.
Thus, until tactics , technology and operational competence enabled the allied navies to master the threat of the U-Boat the attrition suffered by the Merchant Navy was, effectively the front line of battle in the North Atlantic Ocean. The importance of this can scarcely be exaggerated , for besides ferrying thousands upon thousands of tons of tanks , aircraft, guns, vehicles, ammunition and that myriad bits and pieces that constituted military supplies . Britain had to continue her economic life to pay for the war and sustain her daily life.
British merchant ships continued to carry essential commodity’s , while many vessels were requisitioned by the state for service as armed auxiliaries, troopers, transports , hospital ships, and so forth, in short the assimilation of disparate merchant shipping companies into the war effort under the leadership of Lord Leathers and his Ministry of War Transport was a major strategic achievement comparable with with any initiative of a purely naval or military character.
Such a success is composed of many, many smaller triumphs and these in turn , come at a price. In this invaluable
Book, Ian Malcolm has detailed the losses of 53 shipping company’s , ship by ship. The outcomes of many of these are epic in themselves , chronically of individual endurance and heroism almost beyond belief when one recalls the fact that they received little recognition at the time. Today they are all but lost to us, but it is worth recalling that there are two war graves in distant Timbuktu . They are both of Merchant Seamen Ian Malcolm’s book explains why.

JS.
My first ship I was on and the company I spent by first 11 years at sea with lost 20 ships . 5 of them being Empire ships and two others on bareboat charter. One of the masters at the time was a survivor and I had the privilige to sail with him in later life, a very quite and unassuming man , a long time dead now as most of them are today. But they should not be forgotten. JS

[DeepSea]

I have been compiling casualties lost from British & Commonwealth Merchant ships for many years and although a large portion of those lost are commemorated on Tower Hill, it does not paint the full picture of the Merchant Navy sacrifice and the true figure will probably never be known. Some of the ships named on Tower Hill only show the names of the British subjects killed when in fact many lives were lost and although the other names are commemorated on various memorials including Liverpool, Hong Kong and Bombay, if all were commemorated on the one memorial it would probably give a much better interpretation of the true losses the Merchant Navy suffered. The figures below will be as close as any you will find.... to date and new cases are still being brought to light and investigated even today.

Tower Hill Memorial 23,753
Buried Ashore 2,594
Canadian 1,554 (Halifax & Tower Hill Memorial)
Bombay/Chittagong Memorial 6,048
Hong Kong War Memorial 1,400
Liverpool Naval Memorial 1,400 (MN who served on RN vessels under the T124T & T124X Agreements)
Australian War Memorial 359
Royal Navy DEMS 2,713
DEMS Maritime Regt. 1,222
DEMS from other Army Regiments 50
Commodores and Naval Staff 699

A HMSO study published in 1955 "Merchant Shipping & the Demands of War" also states that as many as 11,600 Merchant Seamen between 1942-1944 died shortly after leaving their ship, or whose lives were permanently damaged, either physically or mentally. Also the qualification for war grave status, unlike the members of the three armed services differs considerably for the Merchant Navy. After nearly three years research and reading through 4,716 digital pages of the 1939-1945 Deaths at Sea Register, I documented the names of a further 5,361 men from all corners of the British Commonwealth who died in service in the Merchant Navy during WWII and have up until now been forgotten and have no official commemoration due to the circumstances of their deaths. Without trying to be too controversial, when you consider there are ten British soldiers commemorated on the Brookwood War Memorial who were hung for murder during WWII who due to the fact they were in uniformed service, automatically qualified for war grave status, suggests something is wrong. It would probably take an Act of Parliament to amend the rules the Commonwealth War Graves Commission are governed by, which once again raises the old adage that the Merchant Navy are and always will be the "Forgotten Fourth Service"

The extra 5000+ names I forwarded to the CWGC were all eventually rejected for War Grave status by the Commission.

[Doc Vernon]

Thank you once again Billy
As always your Posts are so informative and its so nice to see someone mas dedicated as you are in the Plight to have all Seaman recognised and Remembered.
Sad that those 5000 odd were rejected ,was there a reason given at all i wonder?
Our appreciation i am sure from ALL here.
Cheers

[vic mcclymont]

According to the Imperial War Museum site, 3000 ships and 15000 me were lost in WW1.
Vic

[DeepSea]

CWGC state by the end of WWI, 3,305 merchant ships had been lost with a total of 17,000 lives.

[DeepSea]

Regarding the rejection of the 5000+ cases by the CWGC I submitted. This was down to the original ruling regarding the death of Merchant Seamen that theirs deaths had to be attributed to "direct enemy action" I have pointed out many, many cases to the Commission, that this is not the actual case as there are many deaths recorded on their register, which do not fit the original criteria they are governed by. Their answer to this that mistakes in commemorations have been made during the process, but it would be unfair to un-commemorate someone because of an error. So why not just change the guidelines????

Extensive research I have undertaken on every WWII individual panel on Tower Hill has revealed a number of inaccuracies with certain individuals and without being disrespectful to those who had the tireless job of compiling the data, they have been pointed out to the CWGC. Also a further fifty-nine individual cases, which have been researched, I have been unable to identify just what actually happened to them for their inclusion on the memorial. However after consultation with the CWGC Commemorations Policy Manager, there is no indication that those commemorations are erroneous.

The CWGC never used to take me serious all those years ago, but speaking the Chairman of the National MNA Capt. John Sail a few years ago who had attended a meeting with the CWGC and John happened to mention my name. The reply was " Oh!! Billy McGee, yes we know him alright!!" Took that as a compliment to honest.