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Thread: Punishments for Desertion

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    Default Punishments for Desertion

    Please could anyone tell me what was the likely punishment for an apprentice deserting his ship/ Master in 1860s?

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    Default Re: Punishments for Desertion

    In the 1860s is anyone’s guess or maybe some historian may know, if you are referring to the sea then in the 1960s he would have not been able to put his papers in for the sitting of any certification, unless under exceptional circumstances. Also an apprentice at sea had a bond placed on him which would automatically have had to be paid. His parents or guardians having undertaking to pay. I would imagine in the 1860s a prison term could have also been a possibility. As regards the sea there was a complete difference of description between a cadet and an apprentice. Most assume both were the same they were not. I don’t know about the likes of blue flu and the way they were employed, they went under the fancy title of midshipmen but rather think they signed Indentures as well so may have been a title meaning nothing. Someone out of blue funnel would know. An apprentice in both centuries was a bonded servant. Cheers JWS
    Last edited by j.sabourn; 18th August 2018 at 08:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Punishments for Desertion

    ###in 1961 we had an apprentice stand on the quay with two irish abs all drunk as skunks they had been on the pop 3 days or so .....they were telling the old man what so and so he was it was our last port from home ie santander we had been out 11 months or so and were coming up from oz with grain .....happily enough to shields ....they really gave it some stick ....the old man shouted get your bloody selves aboard we are going to shields ......same patter back from them .....anyway got back to shields and later went for another vessel there in the pool was the apprentice told me he had not gone home but had got a job OS on a cargo vessel ..and his journey back to the uk had been a long hard trip .......just deserts comes to mind......WE REAP WHAT WE SOW ......both fool and wise man .....happily the wise man learns his lesson while the fool......well we all know what happens to him lol cappy

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    Default Re: Punishments for Desertion

    In my time at sea, no where near as long as some on this site, mine was 14-15 ships, some double headers, but only recall sailing with one apprentice, and that was on the mv Durham Trader. He was a likeable joker, over to get on the ships loudspeaker and play the disc jockey, daft jokes etc. I suppose the skipper was very tolerant to allow his high jinks, but no idea how his studies went. that was a 10 month trip, so whether he stuck it out i have no idea, kt
    R689823

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    Default Re: Punishments for Desertion

    For those who don’t know. An apprentice did not sign on , his discharge book was empty at the end of 4 years. His seatime was on the back of his indentures which was proof for the DTI. He was the property of the owner for four years.
    A cadet did sign on and was no company’s servant as such, and could change ships and company’s the same as any seaman.
    JWS

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    Default Re: Punishments for Desertion

    #4... Keith in the good or bad old days whichever way you look at it. When ships had to sign on and off under a shipping master from the federation. The manning of the vessel was scrutinised . Can’t remember the requirements then but say they were minimum of Bosun , Carpenter, 6 ABs or EDHs, 2 sos, 2 jos And 2 deck boys. The apprentices could be brought into the manning equation depending on seatime, a third year app could be an AB. A second. Year app. A SOS. And so forth. That’s one of the reasons they got called cheap labour. as regards studying that was usually left to yourself on trampships. Most apprentices the only thing they studied was their navel. Preferably in Cappys palace in Osaka. Cheers JS
    Last edited by j.sabourn; 18th August 2018 at 10:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Punishments for Desertion

    When I came home as DBS from NZ on the Medic I volunteered to work my passage home. The mate declined my offer saying we do not encourage deserters. This forced me into the situation of reclining in a sun lounger topping up my tan and spending my nights in the bar socialising.
    As we were in a civilian occupation , not subject to military rules or regulations how could I be described as a deserter ?


    In the 1860s however seamen were subject to naval rules. I imagine the apprentice would have been tied to the mast and given a severe flogging , perhaps even keelhauled. Then on payoff day the most severe punishment of all , a double DR.

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    Default Re: Punishments for Desertion

    Quote Originally Posted by j.sabourn View Post
    #4... Keith in the good or bad old days whichever way you look at it. When ships had to sign on and off under a shipping master from the federation. The manning of the vessel was scrutinised . Can’t remember the requirements then but say they were minimum of Bosun , Carpenter, 6 ABs or EDHs, 2 sos, 2 jos And 2 deck boys. The apprentices could be brought into the manning equation depending on seatime, a third year app could be an AB. A second. Year app. A SOS. And so forth. That’s one of the reasons they got called cheap labour. as regards studying that was usually left to yourself on trampships. Most apprentices the only thing they studied was their navel. Preferably in Cappys palace in Osaka. Cheers JS
    #####your navigation not quite right john it was a slightly lower latitude than the navel ...and sometimes studied with great intensity by even two at once ....but not necceseraly aprentices.........like the gospel song ses OH HAPPY DAY

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    Default Re: Punishments for Desertion

    JWS
    On joining my first ship as a cadet I was given a NMTB training book that contained pages of tasks that I had to complete. For each ship I signed on I had to fill in ships details, draw such items as the pump Room payout, describe the cargo gear, carry out navigation tasks, learn the Colregs etc. Etc. Each task had to be signed of as satisfactory completion by a officer and weekly and monthly sighted and signed by the chief officer and captain. If you failed to maintain and keep up the book the company cadet training officer or the personnel officer would bollock you and even threaten you with the sack, which did happen to one fellow cadet.this was in 1967 and even now most companies employing cadets will use the up to date version of that training manual and woe betide any cadet who fails to maintain it.even Stolt tankers used that same training book for their cadets, irrespective of nationality.
    Rgds
    J.A.

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    Default Re: Punishments for Desertion

    Just shows the difference in ships and companies and the rapidly changing times. I refer to 1953 to 1957. I still have my indentures and know what the legal obligations of the owners was in that period. If you don’t have an Apprentices Indenture then you weren’t an apprentice then at that time. As said I don’t know whether Blue Flu were apprentices or cadets , although they were called midshipmen then. There was a 30 pound bond payable on unsatisfactory completion or cancelling of indentures and a 25 pound bonus on satisfactory completion of same. This I beleve was the standard Shipping Federation indenture, posher companies may have had their own.cheers JS

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