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Thread: Query on Ranks

  1. #1
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    Default Query on Ranks

    Hello.
    My great-grandfather was in the Merchant Navy in the late 19th / early 20th centuries.
    I understand that trying to find out information during this period is fairly difficult due to records not being kept, unless I'm mistaken.
    Unfortunately apart from his name I know vitŕually nothing about him.
    My query, however, relates to his rank. On one document he was described as a Master Mariner; on another as a Ship's Master. What, if any, is the difference between the two terms? Would the size of the vessel have any bearing on rank?

    Thanks for any advice.
    Last edited by Alan Cam; 5th March 2018 at 04:36 AM.

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: Query on Ranks

    G'day Alan and welcome to the best site of it's kind you will ever find.

    Ships master, often refered to as the captain or skipper is the one in charge of the ship.

    Master mariner is something else and there are I am sure some on site who will answer better than I.
    Happy daze John in Oz.

    Life is too short to blend in.

    John Strange R737787
    World Traveller

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    Default Re: Query on Ranks

    The ranks on a. Merchant vessel foreign going are master mate 2 mate 3 mate and so on. Engineers are chief engineer second engineer third engineer and so on. The term captain is purely or was a complimentary title and is a military rank, whenever I hear it used to describe a merchant ships master I think of a football or cricket team. In today’s world however one gets mrs called ms boys become girls ad lib and people’s descriptions as regards sex don’t mean much anymore so. Anything goes. A master Mariner today I would assume is one who holds the relevant licence and has sailed in that rank. A ships master is the owners representative and has his name and cert. number on the cert. of registry so was in fact the owner for all legal purposes until he turned up if ever. Today though much of this has gone by the board and different rules to suit may abound. If you want to call the master of a ship the captain just do what I do and think of a soccer team. If your grandfather was asked his occupation it would have been master Mariner, if he was asked on the ship his rank it would have been master. Regards JWS.
    Last edited by j.sabourn; 5th March 2018 at 07:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Query on Ranks

    1942 JUNE 30TH MASTER'S CERTIFICATE.jpg

    This is my Dad's Certificate - the reason why he missed sailing with Capt. A. Banning on PQ17 !
    I always thought that 'Master Mariner' had s/thing to do with Foreign-going?
    regards
    Brenda

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    Default Re: Query on Ranks

    Anyone who has passed the examinations and has a certificate of competence as Master, no matter what rank, is a Master Mariner. Actually serving on board as the vessels Captain is the ships Master.

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    Default Re: Query on Ranks

    #4... that is exactly the same. As my certificate Brenda, might even be the same ink, and scrollsman. The only difference is my number is 96781. Today the certificates are different and go down to master 4 and 5. Is to difficult to go into maybe someone else will explain. I still retain my old the same as your fathers but had to send in to get updated to the cornflakes packet and in the process they clipped the old one like a used passport. Hang on to it. It belonged to a proper seaman. It was all to do to keep the certification standard to the lowest common denominator is all I can suggest and by the standards I observed before retiring. Blame the EU among other things for standards. Regards JWS.

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    Default Re: Query on Ranks

    As John Saborn pointed out earlier despite what Wikipedia says there is no Merchant Navy rank as captain I have only ever sailed is one captain in all my time at sea and he was a captain RNR and the master of the vessel I was on
    Rob Page R855150 - British & Commonwealth Shipping ( 1965 - 1973 ) Gulf Oil -( 1973 - 1975 ) Sealink ( 1975 - 1986 )

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    Default Re: Query on Ranks

    Perhaps Den can answer this one. Did you ever sail with a second cook and baker who ever got referred to as a masterbakor. Brenda is quite correct the era she refers to is the same as most of us and refers to a foreign going certificate, A home trade certificate or as some of these various numbered masters today does not encompass the whole range of seagoing, particularly as regards to navigation. So to call someone with such a master Mariner is being kind. On my marriage certificate as occupation is second mate in the merchant service as was such at the time , even though I had a 1st mates certificate. If I had, had a masters cert. at that time I would still have put in what I was employed as. A master 5 certificate today I don’t remember what it allows you to do, but can’t be much, but to be a holder of such and call yourself a master Mariner is being a bit extreme to say the least. JWS.
    Last edited by Doc Vernon; 15th February 2022 at 01:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Query on Ranks

    I had a hired cruiser on the broads once and everyone was referring to me as captain, the same as everyone in charge of a boat was. It did no end for self esteem. Commodore is also a naval rank but used by various companies to enhance their supposedly grandeur. A good example of fakes are those who appear from time to time on here under pseudonyms. There is no law against it just the rules that the owner of the site imposes. Don’t get carried away with Wiki whatever it is called, they gather a lot of their information from weird places. Cheers JWS.
    Last edited by Doc Vernon; 15th February 2022 at 01:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Query on Ranks

    The same probably as the sailing master on Nelson’s Victory who was probably a master Mariner. Most of the crews on these warships were pressed men from the merchant fleets, history what I have read never goes into the facts of the manning of such vessels, the crews of such were as much responsible for the victories at sea as all the brass hats put together. Trafalgar would never have happened without them. One man does not win a battle. JWS

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