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Judith Laslett
18th August 2018, 08:28 AM
Please could anyone tell me what was the likely punishment for an apprentice deserting his ship/ Master in 1860s?

j.sabourn
18th August 2018, 08:46 AM
In the 1860s is anyoneís guess or maybe some historian may know, if you are referring to the sea then in the 1960s he would have not been able to put his papers in for the sitting of any certification, unless under exceptional circumstances. Also an apprentice at sea had a bond placed on him which would automatically have had to be paid. His parents or guardians having undertaking to pay. I would imagine in the 1860s a prison term could have also been a possibility. As regards the sea there was a complete difference of description between a cadet and an apprentice. Most assume both were the same they were not. I donít know about the likes of blue flu and the way they were employed, they went under the fancy title of midshipmen but rather think they signed Indentures as well so may have been a title meaning nothing. Someone out of blue funnel would know. An apprentice in both centuries was a bonded servant. Cheers JWS

cappy
18th August 2018, 09:56 AM
###in 1961 we had an apprentice stand on the quay with two irish abs all drunk as skunks they had been on the pop 3 days or so .....they were telling the old man what so and so he was it was our last port from home ie santander we had been out 11 months or so and were coming up from oz with grain .....happily enough to shields ....they really gave it some stick ....the old man shouted get your bloody selves aboard we are going to shields ......same patter back from them .....anyway got back to shields and later went for another vessel there in the pool was the apprentice told me he had not gone home but had got a job OS on a cargo vessel ..and his journey back to the uk had been a long hard trip .......just deserts comes to mind......WE REAP WHAT WE SOW ......both fool and wise man .....happily the wise man learns his lesson while the fool......well we all know what happens to him lol cappy

Keith Tindell
18th August 2018, 10:14 AM
In my time at sea, no where near as long as some on this site, mine was 14-15 ships, some double headers, but only recall sailing with one apprentice, and that was on the mv Durham Trader. He was a likeable joker, over to get on the ships loudspeaker and play the disc jockey, daft jokes etc. I suppose the skipper was very tolerant to allow his high jinks, but no idea how his studies went. that was a 10 month trip, so whether he stuck it out i have no idea, kt

j.sabourn
18th August 2018, 10:21 AM
For those who donít know. An apprentice did not sign on , his discharge book was empty at the end of 4 years. His seatime was on the back of his indentures which was proof for the DTI. He was the property of the owner for four years.
A cadet did sign on and was no companyís servant as such, and could change ships and companyís the same as any seaman.
JWS

j.sabourn
18th August 2018, 10:36 AM
#4... Keith in the good or bad old days whichever way you look at it. When ships had to sign on and off under a shipping master from the federation. The manning of the vessel was scrutinised . Canít remember the requirements then but say they were minimum of Bosun , Carpenter, 6 ABs or EDHs, 2 sos, 2 jos And 2 deck boys. The apprentices could be brought into the manning equation depending on seatime, a third year app could be an AB. A second. Year app. A SOS. And so forth. Thatís one of the reasons they got called cheap labour. as regards studying that was usually left to yourself on trampships. Most apprentices the only thing they studied was their navel. Preferably in Cappys palace in Osaka. Cheers JS

Louis the fly
18th August 2018, 11:27 AM
When I came home as DBS from NZ on the Medic I volunteered to work my passage home. The mate declined my offer saying we do not encourage deserters. This forced me into the situation of reclining in a sun lounger topping up my tan and spending my nights in the bar socialising.
As we were in a civilian occupation , not subject to military rules or regulations how could I be described as a deserter ?


In the 1860s however seamen were subject to naval rules. I imagine the apprentice would have been tied to the mast and given a severe flogging , perhaps even keelhauled. Then on payoff day the most severe punishment of all , a double DR.

cappy
18th August 2018, 11:40 AM
#4... Keith in the good or bad old days whichever way you look at it. When ships had to sign on and off under a shipping master from the federation. The manning of the vessel was scrutinised . Can’t remember the requirements then but say they were minimum of Bosun , Carpenter, 6 ABs or EDHs, 2 sos, 2 jos And 2 deck boys. The apprentices could be brought into the manning equation depending on seatime, a third year app could be an AB. A second. Year app. A SOS. And so forth. That’s one of the reasons they got called cheap labour. as regards studying that was usually left to yourself on trampships. Most apprentices the only thing they studied was their navel. Preferably in Cappys palace in Osaka. Cheers JS

#####your navigation not quite right john it was a slightly lower latitude than the navel ...and sometimes studied with great intensity by even two at once ....but not necceseraly aprentices.........like the gospel song ses OH HAPPY DAY

John Arton
18th August 2018, 11:45 AM
JWS
On joining my first ship as a cadet I was given a NMTB training book that contained pages of tasks that I had to complete. For each ship I signed on I had to fill in ships details, draw such items as the pump Room payout, describe the cargo gear, carry out navigation tasks, learn the Colregs etc. Etc. Each task had to be signed of as satisfactory completion by a officer and weekly and monthly sighted and signed by the chief officer and captain. If you failed to maintain and keep up the book the company cadet training officer or the personnel officer would bollock you and even threaten you with the sack, which did happen to one fellow cadet.this was in 1967 and even now most companies employing cadets will use the up to date version of that training manual and woe betide any cadet who fails to maintain it.even Stolt tankers used that same training book for their cadets, irrespective of nationality.
Rgds
J.A.

j.sabourn
18th August 2018, 11:57 AM
Just shows the difference in ships and companies and the rapidly changing times. I refer to 1953 to 1957. I still have my indentures and know what the legal obligations of the owners was in that period. If you don’t have an Apprentices Indenture then you weren’t an apprentice then at that time. As said I don’t know whether Blue Flu were apprentices or cadets , although they were called midshipmen then. There was a 30 pound bond payable on unsatisfactory completion or cancelling of indentures and a 25 pound bonus on satisfactory completion of same. This I beleve was the standard Shipping Federation indenture, posher companies may have had their own.cheers JS

Bill Morrison
18th August 2018, 06:13 PM
From a dim memory. I can recall the Trawl Fishermen who had signed articles and refused to sail, brought before the court find and sentenced to prison anything from seven days to a month. Some shipping act of !!!! was usually quoted.

j.sabourn
19th August 2018, 09:01 AM
Apprentices Indenture ... is on form C. 4c. Ex. Shipping Federation and is a scrolled parchment which could have had its origins in the 1860s judging by the wording. One of the many paragraphs which are too many to copy on here is “ And it is further agreed that if at any time during the said term that is convicted of any offence under the Merchant Shipping Acts or any sickness the company may terminate his employment “.
JWS

j.sabourn
20th August 2018, 03:07 AM
A further bit from Indenture.....And it is further agreed that if. The said term of four years expires whilst the apprentice is serving outside the United Kingdom , he will continue to serve on board his vessel until the next arrival of the said vessel within Home Trade limits, or until the termination of the current Articles of Agreement whichever shall first happen, but on the said expiry shall sign the said articles of agreement as a Cadet , and shall be paid at a rate equivilant to the current pay of an Able Seaman.
JWS.

To bring the Indentures up to more modern standards at the time a rider was added.
Notwithstanding the covenant on the part of the company hereinbefore contained for the payment to the said apprentice of the sum of £390 in the manner specified . The company hereby further covenants to pay the said apprentice in lieu of the said sum of £390 the sum of £480 in manner following ( that is to say) for the first years. Service Ninety Pounds, for the second years service one hundred and fifteen pounds, for the third years service one hundreds and thirty pounds, and for the fourth years service one hundred and forty five pounds. ( subject to the. (Deductions already specified) together with the further sum of £25 payable after satisfactory service for. term of the Indenture.

Previous to above salary’s they had been £75……£95…£105…£120…
JWS
As said in an earlier post an app. I knew did 5 years away. He had 1 years on ABs money however . Most of us had £25 pound and 12 weeks dole at 30 shillings a week to get you a through 2 mates. Plus whatever you had saved during 4 years. Ivan I think was an apprentice and not a cadet and would confirm as probably signed the same indentures. So once again a cadet was not an apprentice regardless of what some may think. Cheers JWS

j.sabourn
20th August 2018, 05:03 AM
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#1... I hope you have been able to glean something from the various replies Judith... summing up is nothing definite there, but in general an apprentice would have been if anything worse off than his more modern counterpart. I would say he would have been very liable for a Gaol sentence the same as any seafarer. If examinations were being held in 1860 he would probably have been barred from sitting. However saying that most that I have met in Australia jumped ship or more legally deserted. At the time in certain areas as long as you kept your nose clean you were allowed to stay. My opposite number on one ship out here was an ex Norwegian ships carpenter who deserted in Darwin. He rose to master. Was a good Australian citizen. I found nearly every seaman I met out here had a UK background. Rather think though there were legal obligations on the immigration to return young persons that was anyone under 18 years of age. I even have a namesake out here I never knew about, his father jumped ship out here in 1926 and married an Australian girl. If you require more accurate information would be better to consult a good maritime museum or some nautical historian. Most of what we say is our own assumptions. Regards John Sabourn.

happy daze john in oz
20th August 2018, 05:57 AM
I would think that even as late as the 1800's there would have been press gangs of sorts even for merchant ships.
Under those conditions I doubt apprentiship would exist.

From the posting here I gather it only concerns deck, was engine different?

With catering we had apprentice cooks and from memory they had each voyage marked in their discharge book.
But they would have come under different rules and regulations to deck, some still had to take shore time for schooling.

j.sabourn
20th August 2018, 07:07 AM
John there were press gangs in Aberdeen in the 1980s. See where I got one poor blighter who didn’t know where he was the following day on coming to. Some of your pier head jumps were very close to the term. The ship owner would not have a delayed ship if avoidable. That was loss of earnings. I never came across Engineer apprentices during my time, although they may have existed. All the engineers I knew were usually time served in the shipyards, although at least one served his time in a razor blade factory , and another was a blacksmith which I used to say he learned to shoe horses only joking of course. They were graded by the DTI I believe in what trade they served their time , which was mainly fitting and turning I believe, any engineer will know better than me. A good friend of mine now dead was an electrician by trade and rose to chief engineer on a diesel electric ship I was on. Most engineers had their preference on describing themselves as steam trained and the motor endorsement was secondary or the other way round, depending how strong they felt on the subject. A subject for engineers, I never interfered in the E.R. That was the chief and the seconds domain. All I wanted was to be kept in the picture if any problems down below. Cheers JS

cappy
20th August 2018, 08:23 AM
John there were press gangs in Aberdeen in the 1980s. See where I got one poor blighter who didn’t know where he was the following day on coming to. Some of your pier head jumps were very close to the term. The ship owner would not have a delayed ship if avoidable. That was loss of earnings. I never came across Engineer apprentices during my time, although they may have existed. All the engineers I knew were usually time served in the shipyards, although at least one served his time in a razor blade factory , and another was a blacksmith which I used to say he learned to shoe horses only joking of course. They were graded by the DTI I believe in what trade they served their time , which was mainly fitting and turning I believe, any engineer will know better than me. A good friend of mine now dead was an electrician by trade and rose to chief engineer on a diesel electric ship I was on. Most engineers had their preference on describing themselves as steam trained and the motor endorsement was secondary or the other way round, depending how strong they felt on the subject. A subject for engineers, I never interfered in the E.R. That was the chief and the seconds domain. All I wanted was to be kept in the picture if any problems down below. Cheers JS

#####well john as for the blacksmith down below ...the horse power was massive so there feet had to be seen to ....lol cappy

j.sabourn
20th August 2018, 08:54 AM
This was in 1964 Cappy . He was a man in his 50s then , so could well have been shoeing your milkman’s horse , the one you fell in love with. What did they call it Watt wasn’t it ?, he was as strong as 746 horses so they say. Good stuff in that unskimmed milk. I used to be a milk monitor at school until I got the sack for throwing the contents of a bottle at another boy, missing him and this stupid teacher got in the way . Don’t know what he had to complain about as saw him licking it off his face like a cat. Cheers JS

cappy
20th August 2018, 09:16 AM
##well john the horses name was boxer.....and he new when he was going back for his nosh .......he walked the whole round ...but after the last customer was served ....he got really skittish ....he trotted on then broke into a canter .....then bless him went for the full gallop....the crates and empties banging all over but it was all on to stop him galloping and get him back to a canter ......as people shreeked YAHOOOO as he shot down to his stable ,,,,nigh on blew me hat off .....whoa boxer whoa.....lol

Tony Taylor
20th August 2018, 10:13 AM
##well john the horses name was boxer.....and he new when he was going back for his nosh .......he walked the whole round ...but after the last customer was served ....he got really skittish ....he trotted on then broke into a canter .....then bless him went for the full gallop....the crates and empties banging all over but it was all on to stop him galloping and get him back to a canter ......as people shreeked YAHOOOO as he shot down to his stable ,,,,nigh on blew me hat off .....whoa boxer whoa.....lol

HA HA Reminded me when I was a kid, lived in small mining village in North Durham, the local farmer delivered milk with a horse and cart, the horse knew the round so was never driven , he just walked around and stopped in same places every day. Invariably he would take a dump in the same place at the end of our street. The lady who lived there had a dog with a taste for horse cr-p and if he got the chance he would launch out of the house and scoff the lot, much to our amusement, however it turned out that he would go back in the house and spew it up on floor.
So it was not uncommon for some young scoundrel to knock on the back door while another would open the front and let the dog out; this became a popular spectacle for all the local kids, mainly at weekends when there was no school

j.sabourn
20th August 2018, 10:17 AM
Sounds a bit like me when I worked for a cobbler. Usd to have to wear a brown dust coat , cash bag round the neck and an old bus conductors hat on head. The ex butcher boys bike I had to do my rounds on had the cobblers name on the bike frame and said Albert Bolam Shoe repairs. All the young kids used to shout there’s Albat Bolams lad. I used to drop the bike and throw the shoes at them. Newly soled and heeled or not. Anyone knew his name was Albert and not Albat , like in I’ll bat your lug. Horses shoes would have been better to have. Cheers JS

Keith Tindell
20th August 2018, 10:20 AM
As a young nipper living in Hampshire, the milk horse was in the field behing us, this was East Meon, and me and younger brother used an old tractor tyre as stirrups and saddle, and used to give each other a leg up, and ride him round the field, or we did , will we were caught, and then my old man had his pennyworth. kept in doors after school for a long time after that, kt

cappy
20th August 2018, 10:48 AM
##when the local riding school horses were put in a field near us ...our little gang galloped them round the field all night...one youth had rogued a carton from outside the chemist at horsley hill and on opening it found the old time ladies sanitary towells .....some one suggested we put them as nosebands on the washing line we had nicked as bridles .....it was like grand national day as we charged round the field 8 or 9 of us all horses complete with nosebands......happy days ...cappy

j.sabourn
20th August 2018, 10:53 AM
Hope they were new ones Cappy. JS

happy daze john in oz
21st August 2018, 06:31 AM
Our milkman had an electric van but the baker delivered with horse and cart.
Said the droppings were good on rhubarb, preferred custard myself.

Then there was 'Ernie, who drove the fastest milk cart in the west'.