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Pamela White
7th July 2016, 05:12 PM
I am trying to find evidence of my late father's service during the WW11, with a view to obtaining the Arctic Medal. We know he was on Russian convoys on an Athel Line ship.
The medals office have most details of his service, but say it is not sufficient!
Can you advise me?
Many thanks, Pamela V White. nee Moxon.

Captain Kong
7th July 2016, 05:46 PM
Keep looking in Pamela, some of our experts will find details for you,
Brian

Hugh
7th July 2016, 06:43 PM
Hello Pamela and welcome,

I need to know what you have given to the medal office by way of proof of service. I can advise when I know that detail.

Regards
Hugh

Brenda Shackleton
7th July 2016, 08:02 PM
Hello Pamela,

I have looked at the copy of my Application form and this is what you need;-
Name ( your father)
MN Discharge Book number
Rank
date of birth & death
State role of MN seaman ( this looks the same as 'Rank' to me.)
Received Arctic emblem Y/N
received Soviet 40th Anniversary medal Y/N
Details of service in Arctic regions - so, as much as you know. Ship's name;Convoy number; dates.
Send the form to MINISTRY OF DEFENCE MEDAL OFFICE, Imjimn Barracks, Innsworth, Gloucester GL3 1HW.

They then send it to Cardiff which is where the MN medals are dealt with.
Mr. Neil Staples
Maritime & Coastguard Agency
Anchor Court
Keen Road
CARDIFF CF24 5JW. Tel;- 020 2044 8800

It would be worth phoning Cardiff and asking to speak to Mr. Staples - who is a very helpful man ! He told me to include a copy of Dad's Death cert( which was not asked for on the original form.)

Do you think that your Dad was on ATHLETEMPLAR' PQ18, September 1942? If so, then MY Dad rescued him ! ( Capt W. J. Hartley Rescue Ship,'Copeland')

Another thing. The whole process takes AGES. So if you can cut a few corners by going directly to Cardiff then that will be a great help.
Also, if your mother is still alive then fill in the form on her behalf b/c Widows come b4 children.
regards
Brenda

Hugh
7th July 2016, 08:11 PM
Hello Brenda,

I presume that Pamela doesn't have the proof of Arctic service so will need to provide that proof of Time and Area evidence. The onus is on the applicant to provide that evidence either in the form of copies of discharge book/CRS 10 or other acceptable primary records.

Regards
Hugh

Brenda Shackleton
8th July 2016, 03:01 PM
Hello Pamela,
I'm pretty sure that the Atheltemplar was the only Athel tanker to go to the Arctic. If that was so, wouldn't you have heard that your Dad's ship had sunk and that he was rescued?
Regards
Brenda

Pamela White
5th September 2016, 05:20 PM
Hi Hugh - Sorry to be so long in replying - I am not familiar with 'the system'!
The details given to the Medals office were those required on their Arctic star application form - Date and place of birth, date of death,full names, discharge number most recent appointments prior to retirement.
Decorations awarded - to date- are 39-45 Star,Atlantic Star, Africa Star, Pacific Star,Italy Star, and 39-45 War Medal.
We are not aware that his ship was sunk, and unfortunately my Mother is also deceased.
We are unable to find any other record of his service, what ship, etc. so I guess we have reached a 'dead end'.
However, I will give Cardiff one more go
many thanks for all the responses, which I have only just found! Pam V White nee Moxon

Hugh
5th September 2016, 06:52 PM
Hello Pamela,

Can you give me his name, date and place of birth and his discharge number if you have it?
Do you have any discharge books and if so what dates do the book or books cover?

If you don't have any discharge books then If you can give me his details I can advise you how to proceed and what you need to do next.

Regards
Hugh

Ian Malcolm
6th September 2016, 06:07 PM
Extracted from my book, SHIPPING LOSSES OF THE SECOND WORLD WAR, published by the History Press in 2013.

ATHELTEMPLAR *(Captain C. Ray). Sailed from Hvalfjord, Iceland, at 6am on 7 September, 1942, bound for Archangel, and, the next day, joined Convoy PQ.18 which left Loch Ewe on the 2nd. Convoy spotted by a German reconnaissance plane on the 12th. Attacks began on the 13th and Atheltemplar shot down a plane. Torpedoed by U.457 (KrvKpt. Karl Brandenburg) at 4am on the 14th and abandoned. All 61 picked up by HMRS Copeland (Captain W.J. Hartley) and the destroyer HMS Offa (LtCdr. R.A. Ewing), but transferred to the minesweepers HMS Harrier (Cdr. A.D.H. Jay) and HMS Sharpshooter (LtCdr. W.L. O’Mara). Sixteen later died of their injuries. HMS Harrier failed in an attempt to sink the burning ship, but U.408 (Kptlt. Reinhard von Hymmen), found her capsized in the afternoon and sank her by gunfire, in position 76º10´N 18º00´E. U.457 was sunk by the destroyer HMS Impulse (LtCdr. E.G. Roper) on the 16th. All 45 died. *I seem to have got this wrong, as the name on the Tower Hill Memorial is that of Captain A.H.C. Waterson.

Other ships lost in Convoy PQ.18

13th September – By torpedo bombers.

Empire Beaumont. See under Walter Runciman & Co.
John Penn (US Liberty Ship). (Captain A. Johnson).Three died.
Sukhona (USSR)
Africander (Pan.). (Captain Bjarne A. Lia). All 35 rescued.
MacBeth (Pan.). None died.
Empire Stevenson. All 59 died.
Oregonian (US). Twenty-eight died.
Wacosta (US). All forty-nine survived.

By u-boats

Stalingrad (USSR) (Captain A. Sakharov). By U.408. Twenty-one died when a lifeboat capsized. Sixty-six survived, including Captain Sakharov who spent 40 minutes in the freezing water.
Oliver Ellsworth (US) (Captain O.E. Buford). Badly damaged by U.408. One drowned. Sixty-nine picked up by HMRS Copeland and the ASW trawler HMS St. Kenan which sank the ship by gunfire.

14th September.
Mary Luckenbach (US). Blown up by an aerial torpedo. All 65 died.
Kentucky (US). Bombed. All picked up by the escort. Wreck drifted ashore and part of her cargo salvaged.

All survivors, with the exception of those from the Kentucky and a few others picked up by the escort and HMRS Copeland, transferred to the cruiser HMS Scylla and her attendant destroyers before they departed to escort Convoy QP.14 to the UK. A total of approximately 25 German planes were destroyed and U.88 (Kptlt. Heino Bohmann), U.457 and U.589 (KrvKpt. Hans-Joachim Horrer) sunk.

Brenda Shackleton
7th September 2016, 08:09 AM
A correction here, Ian . The Rescue Ships were NOT Royal Navy so not HMRS. They were manned entirely by Merchant Officers and men.
regards
Brenda

j.sabourn
7th September 2016, 11:49 AM
When the fleet sailed for the Falklands mainly from Portsmouth there were a number of supply vessels from the North Sea plus at least one River Humber tug which lay alongside us storing and being equipped with various communication gear. Most of the fleet that I saw was in the main merchant ships adapted to RN requirements. We were down to go which was cancelled ( which was quite happy about) as was the only ship the Navy had at the time for a bottomed submarine. There were at least two foreign flagged ships lying in Portsmouth hired out to the RN so I should imagine even then Britain was incapable of using its own flagged vessels as didn't have them. Other ships were picked up to join the fleet from various parts of the world. I knew 3 MN masters who went down with the first fleet. On I would imagine every MN ship there was a team of RN officers and men depending I suppose on the duties of individual ships. The naval team I saw on the Humber tug were fitting specialist radio equipment on board as everything I would imagine be in Cypher form and encrypted. Hugh who went down with the fleet as such as a specialist would know a lot more if willing to talk about it. However that was more recent and as far as Brenda is talking I doubt apart from such ships that were armed would be totally MN manned. The MN defence course that a lot of us did in the early 60"s when the crap was going to hit the fan over Cuba, was mostly all the good stuff that had worked in the last war and no mention of RN manning, it was all ABC warfare, with a 300 knot gunsight thrown in for good measure. Aircraft then were doing 600 knots. The ships that Brendas father served on the tailend charlies would be one of the jobs most would not have liked as would be a sitting duck for any surfaced U-Boat in the area and could practice his gunnery on to sink. Cheers JWS

Pamela White
7th September 2016, 12:26 PM
Good Afternoon Hugh, Thank you for your help. My Father's full name was Kenneth Moxon, born in Finchley. 26 Feb 1920 and died 20 Feb 1981.
His discharge number was R213921.
Unfortunately we have no other service records.
He started his apprenticeship in 1936 with Athel Line, and left his last ship Caltex Tanganyika (in command) in 1958, when he joined the Port of Bristol. His final appointment was as Deputy Dockmaster Avonmouth and Portishead, to which he was appointed in 1970.
(He died within about 6 months of retiring.)
Any help you can give will be greatly appreciated by my sister and me, with thanks, Pamela V white, nee Moxon.

Hugh
7th September 2016, 07:29 PM
Hello Pamela,

He has a medal file at Kew as you may already be aware. Held in piece BT 395/1/69995 (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4319397). You can download this file for £3.45. It will have a note of his medals but as the Arctic Star was not a recognised award in its own right at that time it will not be shown so you have to prove that he served on a ship during the Arctic run. For that we need, in the absence of his discharge books, a copy of his CRS 10 which should list all of his ships. We can then find out if any of them served 'on the road to Russia'.

He has a seaman's pouch held at Kew and you should also obtain this - BT 372/279/94 (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8174726)

His CRS 10 should be held in the following file at Kew: BT 382/1276 (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10989501).
Best obtained by visit to Kew as quite expensive to obtain online.

Once you have those two files we can check the contents to see if you are able to apply for the medal. I hope that is of some help. Let us know how you get on.

Regards
Hugh

John Arton
8th September 2016, 08:12 AM
C.P. had two ships down there. The first one was a brand new chemical tanker on its maiden voyage and was the water tanker for the land forces (as an aside in the Gulf War the USA were chartering water tankers at $80000 p/day). The other was a product tanker laden with jet fuel.
The water tanker was very close to the Atlantic Conveyor when it was hit.
Both ships stayed down there for a number of years being re-supplied by other C.P. tankers. C.P. actually bid for the shipping of all the materials for the rebuilding of Port Stanley but were beaten by Maersk of all companys, C.P. at that time still being operated out of London with ships registered in British crown colonies.
rgds
JA

j.sabourn
8th September 2016, 09:01 AM
For those who sailed on the Baron Boats may have come across a Capt. Donald Young. He had left the Baron Boats by then but went right through the ranks to master, On his epitaph in the local paper he was down as being a fleet navigator at the invasion of the Falklands, I often wondered what a fleet navigator was, my first thought maybe he was one of the few who could read a sextant, this of course was poor wittisism. He died later up the Persian Gulf on the deck of a supply vessel. He would of been 79 today if still alive. As died later in the 80"s with a heart attack. JWS

Brenda Shackleton
8th September 2016, 09:22 AM
Hello Ian,

Below is an extract from my Dad's notes. Capt W.J. Hartley D.S.C. It explains the position of the Rescue Ship Service in regard to the Royal Navy.

"It may as well be said that the Admiralty considered taking the Rescue Ships into the Royal Navy in 1943. As each ship arrived in Glasgow a Royal Navy Captain came on board to have an interview with the Captain and the Chief Officer on behalf of Admiral Sir Richard Hill. The scheme, submitted by him, seemed quite reasonable. The Ship would become a Royal Navy one and the Captain and Chief Officer would be given the rank of Lieut. Commander and Lieutenant, respectively. I was interviewed first (the Chief Officer was not present) and I had given it some thought beforehand. In reply to the Naval Captain I said, “Sir, I respectively decline the offer and this is the reason. We work independently during an attack and move immediately to the rescue of our shipwrecked and stricken seamen on our own initiative, dealing with the situation in every weather, without prompting, or orders from anyone. As highly experienced and competent seamen we handle every man as gently and carefully as possible- no two situations are alike. On the other hand, if I were a Naval Officer, I could not move my ship to any rescue until I was ordered to by my Naval Superior. Consequently precious time would be lost and lives as well. So, if my ship is taken over by the Admiralty, I regret to say that I will not go with it. I would feel that my place should be in the Merchant Navy to which I belong and to which I would return.” He thanked me and asked to see my Chief Officer – Mr. Armour. He was made an offer of Lieutenant, but would not accept it.

Considering our depleted number of nine Rescue Ships out of fourteen (due to enemy action) it was good to know learn that we were all in harmony with each other. This was remarkable because we did not have any previous communication with each other. I was told later that eight ships had indicated that they were not in favour of being taken over by the Royal Navy. The Admiralty Enquiry that followed was not in favour, either. It concluded with the statement- “The Rescue Ships were doing great work and the Royal Navy could not do any better” Henceforth, it was set out that the Rescue Ships were to be held in the Royal Fleet Auxiliary Service as before, manned by Merchant Navy Captains, Officers and Men."


I have just tried to paste an extract from the PQ18 Convoy Conference (Sept 1942) and it would appear that I have deleted it !! Darn. If I find it ,I'll post again. Briefly, Rear Admiral Boddam- Whetham told my Dad that he was not to pick up survivors, but to wait for a signal. He disobeyed the order.

regards
Brenda

Ivan Cloherty
8th September 2016, 09:53 AM
Thank you for that Brenda, you have a right to be proud. The RN tend to forget that we are just as proud of our service as they are of theirs, they also tend to forget that man for man we have probably spent more time actually at sea, have probably experienced more foul weather than they have and are aware of our vessel's capabilities and limitations. I have spoken to so many RN personnel (including an Admiral) who have no idea how a merchant ship handles and its limitations, most are surprised to discover that we only had one screw and one rudder but still expected miracle station keeping in convoys in foul weather, difficult when loaded but even more difficult in ballast when the ship is shaking like a wet terrier

j.sabourn
8th September 2016, 10:33 AM
The RN has a long and grand history. Even in Nelsons time the big square rigged vessels were manned by a larger percentage of forced men picked up by the specialized port patrols put out from their vessels. Mostly a lot of these were MN seamen who failed to dodge the cutting out patrols. Most big ships of the day had what was called a Sailing Master whose crew were mostly MN seamen. He was responsible to the captain or Admiral whoever was in charge of vessel to position the ship as required. No doubt those who read a lot of history will have seen this referred to in various books. The RN of 1979 to 1983 that I saw were mostly very highly specialised persons who concentrated mainly on one job. Wheras a merchant seaman concentrated on most jobs on a ship. Probably the old saying Jack of all trades master of none may have originated. I was brought up in tramps and not liners which in a way was a harder life, but taught one to make your own decisions on the spot and not wait to be told by the office ashore like today with communications too easy. A master of the old school would never put himself under someone elses authority, this was the start of the decline of the British MN when office boys ashore started to butt in on the workings of a ship the people on the job are the best decision makers you are ever going to get. Be it warship or merchant vessel. JWS

gray_marian
8th September 2016, 07:28 PM
#13, Hugh have tried to open record held at Kew, but unable! Can you send me a link please.

Pamela, here are a few crew lists pertaining to your father from Ancestry World Wide:

Name: Kenneth Moxon
Arrival Date: 14 Apr 1937
Port of Arrival: United States
Birth Date: abt 1920
Age: 17, I,1/2 YRS 117LBS
Gender: Male
Nationality: British
Port of Departure: Havana, Cuba
Ship Name: Athelprincess
Race: English

Name: Kenneth Moxon
Gender: Male length of service 2,1/2yrs
Birth Date: 1920
Age: 18, Apprentice, 5'4" scar on rt hand side of nose
Arrival Date: 14 May 1938
Port of Arrival: San Luis Obispo, California
Ship Name: Athellaird
Shipped or Engaged: Wellington

Name: Kenneth Moxon 52, Church St, Port Glasgow
Birth Date: abt 1920
Age: 21, 3rd Mate
Port of Departure: Durban, South Africa
Arrival Date: 17 Aug 1941
Port of Arrival: Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Franconia
Shipping line: Cunard White Star
Official Number: 147216

Name: Kenneth Moxon
Arrival Date: 8 Apr 1943
Birth Date: abt 1920
Age: 23, 3RD Mate, 140LBS
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality: English
Port of Departure: Avonmouth, England
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: San Vulfrano
In Remarks col: PP-c-229695010

Name: Kenneth Moxon
Arrival Date: 8 Jun 1943
Birth Date: abt 1920
Age: 23
Gender: Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality: English
Port of Departure: Algiers Via,gib
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: San Vulfrano

Name: Kenneth Moxon
Arrival Date: 18 May 1944
Birth Date: abt 1920
Age: 24,155LBS
Gender: Male, Rank:2nd Officer
Ethnicity/ Nationality: English
Port of Departure: Grangemouth, Scotland
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Ship Name: San Cirilo

PAN AMERICAN AIRWAYS, INC:
PASSENGER MANIFEST
Name: Kenneth Moxon
Arrival Date: 13 Feb 1952
Port of Departure: London, England
Port of Arrival: New York, New York
Airline: Pan American Airways

Hugh
8th September 2016, 07:43 PM
Hi Marian,

They all open for me but here are the direct links.

Pouch - R213921 MOXON K 26/02/1920 LONDON | The National Archives (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8174726)
CRS10 - Mountain A to Moxon W J | The National Archives (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10989501)
Medals - Medal listing of Moxon, Kenneth Discharge number: R213921 Date of Birth: ... | The National Archives (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4319397)

Regards
Hugh

gray_marian
8th September 2016, 07:56 PM
Thanks Hugh got that far but unable to read script unless I pay the £3.50, thought I was able to view via Ancestry,
not in this case I'm not:(

Hugh
8th September 2016, 08:40 PM
Unfortunately, not Marian. Ancestry show the link but it only takes you to the owning site (Kew). I don't know why they mention it when you can't open it on their site.

Regards
Hugh

Hugh
8th September 2016, 09:23 PM
Hugh who went down with the fleet as such as a specialist would know a lot more if willing to talk about it. However that was more recent and as far as Brenda is talking I doubt apart from such ships that were armed would be totally MN manned. Cheers JWS

Yes, John, in the case of the rescue ships they were manned completely by the Merchant Navy. Slightly different from other MN ships that had DEMS ratings and CONSIGS staff aboard as required. Most STUFT ships taken up for the Falklands had a naval party on board and although we had our duties and were under the SNO (senior naval officer), the ship was under the command of the master of the vessel as is always the case.

Regards
Hugh

Brenda Shackleton
9th September 2016, 02:13 PM
Right. Found the text that I had deleted..............!

Dad’s notes re; Convoy Conference. Loch Ewe. September 1942

Rear- Admiral Boddam-Whetham. “ Is the Master of the ‘Copeland’ present?”

“Yes, Sir”, I answered.

“Captain, will you please note the change in your cruising position. It is not intended that you should pick up survivors. The Corvettes and trawlers will do that and take them to you. Meanwhile, you will keep your station of No. 15 at all times, and all survivors will be brought to you. This is the procedure for PQ18.”

With a, ”I understand,” I sat down thoroughly disgusted with the so-called procedure for PQ18. ‘This order’ – given by the Commodore was the absolute negation of all that we, Masters, Officers and men of the Rescue Ship Service hold so dear. That is, ‘Freedom of movement ‘. Absolute freedom to move to where the fight is the hottest. ‘Freedom’ , which enables us to snatch up every mother’s son, somebody’s father or brother – very often from a watery grave. Through that order ‘Copeland’ ceased to be a Rescue Ship even in name.

I was wild with indignation and fumed inwardly. What could I do? Protest? I knew that protesting would not avail me much, so I then and there made up my mind that, should the circumstances warrant it- NO ORDERS ON EARTH or consequences , would prevent’ Copeland’ from being a RESCUE SHIP. I took a glance over my left shoulder and saw that Mr. Armour (Jim Armour First Officer) was obviously very hurt also. I knew that he concurred with my decision.

Later on, precisely eleven days later my decision was put into practical effect.

When I met Rear-Admiral Boddam-Wetham again; it was after we had arrived in Archangel. We met in the Ward Room of the Naval Base. He knew that I had disobeyed orders and I felt that I had to offer an explanation for my actions. He was most magnanimous about it. “That’s all correct, Captain. You acted well and disobeyed orders in the proper spirit and for a good reason. If anything, it is cause for congratulations; your ship did very well.”

Regards
Brenda

Pamela White
15th September 2016, 10:02 AM
Good Morning Hugh, Many thanks for your latest (7 Sept) I have only just found it!
We very much appreciate the efforts you and others are putting into our enquiry.
we will pursue your latest suggestions, but 'unfortunately' are going to be away for five weeks,so there will inevitably be some delay.
Marian Gray's input was certainly a revelation- we had no idea of half of it!
Thanks again -we will try to keep up.Regards, Pamela v. White.

Pamela White
5th November 2016, 07:59 PM
Good Evening all - Am now returned from our extended holiday. What does the "Seaman's Pouch ' consist of? is it likely to provide any information useful to our search for evidence of my late Father's service on Arctic Convoys??
Many thanks, Pamela.

Hugh
5th November 2016, 08:58 PM
Hi Pamela,
Records relating to individual seamen filed together in a pouch. These documents may include application forms (most with a photograph of the seaman), certificates, identity cards, cessation documents and notifications of death. Some pouches contain a lot of information others virtually nothing. I would always recommend getting the pouch as it is part of his service records. However, as the first Arctic Convoy (Dervish) assembled in August 1941 the record that will tell you what ship(s) he was on would be his CRS 10.

Regards
Hugh

Pamela White
6th November 2016, 06:24 PM
Thanks Hugh, At the risk of being a further pain - HOW do I actually set about getting this material? Can it be done on line , or by post, or what? As we live down in Devon it is not so easy to get to Kew now!
Many thanks again, Pamela .

Hugh
6th November 2016, 09:12 PM
Hi Pamela,
Sent you a pm.

Regards
Hugh

Pamela White
9th November 2016, 05:12 PM
Hi Hugh - Sorry - not sure what your last message means!
Regards, Pamela

Captain Kong
9th November 2016, 05:33 PM
Hi Pamela,
at the very top of this page is "NOTIFICATIONS" click on that and Hugh will have a message for you.
pm is Private Mail

Pamela White
14th November 2016, 10:24 AM
Thanks for that! I am working on it...
Regards, Pamel

Robert George Young
20th November 2016, 06:04 PM
My dad was part of the Arctic Convoy

Should I contact Cardiff and ask for info I need to give to obtain his medal?

He died in 1986
Suicide.War damaged him.

I would like to know he would have qualified for a medal

Ivan Cloherty
20th November 2016, 06:38 PM
My dad was part of the Arctic Convoy

Should I contact Cardiff and ask for info I need to give to obtain his medal?

He died in 1986
Suicide.War damaged him.

I would like to know he would have qualified for a medal

Robert try and keep all your queries under one heading it will help our volunteer researchers

gray_marian
20th November 2016, 06:56 PM
Hi Robert, Sorry to hear about your father.

Do you have his Discharge book or Seaman's Pouch as this holds his records relating to his service. These documents may include application forms (most with a photograph of the seaman), certificates, identity cards, cessation documents and notifications of death. Some pouches contain a lot of information others virtually nothing. It's recommend that you get the pouch as it is part of his service records. However, the record that will tell you what ship(s) he was on would be his CRS 10. I believe. You would have too apply to the National Archives for these.

Hugh on site is the expert here, just keep looking in as he is a busy man. Have looked on Ancestry & Find My Past but they only provide your father's birth & death dates. Marian.