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vic mcclymont
8th June 2016, 08:29 PM
Todays papers are full of the news that the new class of destroyer cannot operate in the hot waters of the gulf. At times (also in cold water) these ships have blacked out to due to engineering problems.
Many in the press are blaming RR and BAE, which is very easy to do, stating both companies have designed crap equipment.
The problem is not the shipyard or RR the engine suppliers, but MOD boffins.

At the design stage BAE put forward three tried and proven propulsion systems for the new destroyers, MOD boffins insisted in their infinite wisdom, that they wanted something completely different. It was pointed out that the system that the MOD had chosen was untried, no problems that's what we want and that what they got.
Many solutions were put forward, fitting an additional generator on deck, this was discounted.
The solution is that in four or five years each destroyer will be removed from service and lengthened by five frames and an additional diesel generator fitted.
In the meantime lets hope that they are not called for the business that they were designed for.
MOD is to blame not the engine makers or the shipyard, no doubt MOD boffins will receive a healthy cash bonus.
Regards
Vic

Braid Anderson
9th June 2016, 05:47 AM
They've been doing this for a long time Vic. The Sheffield class destroyers were too short, in order to save a tiny percentage of the cost. They also couldn't even have a small cannon mounted to counter terrorists etc, as they were already less stable than the old Leanders. In fact the latter, long in the tooth as they may have been, were probably of more use to the task force commander. The next batches of the class - guess what? - had extra bays in the hull, which gave more room and stability.

Ron B Manderson
9th June 2016, 08:36 PM
On MV Markor & Mahout we had RR gennies.
1800 revs and in warm water they were as much use as a mars bar teapot.
Rubbish they were always overheating. The swimming pool was connected to the Gennie water supply.
Royal Navy. Fit the old Rustons never a problem with them at 700 revs
Ron the batcave

Chris Allman
9th June 2016, 10:42 PM
As usual down to the bean counters in the MOD, who have been told what to do by the great Dictator Dave and the imbecile Osbourne. Give an impression that we are doing something with the looks etc but keep the costs to the ultimate minimum. There will never be a war whilst we are in the EU - oh yeah, what prats.

vic mcclymont
10th June 2016, 09:01 AM
Hi Chris, the D class was ordered by Brown and Blair. Troubles surfaced on the first ship in 2009. So Cameron and Osbourne not to blame this time.
Regard
Vic

Chris Allman
10th June 2016, 01:44 PM
Hi Chris, the D class was ordered by Brown and Blair. Troubles surfaced on the first ship in 2009. So Cameron and Osbourne not to blame this time.
Regard
Vic

What a shame - but I bet the two .......s have some say in whats happening to them via MOD funding and Defence reviews. They have got rid of perfectly good ships in the frigate classes for 6 useless piles of junk, under powered, under manned and underfunded, what a crock of .h.t.

vic mcclymont
22nd July 2016, 10:50 AM
Yesterday's DM carried a story on the D class frigates. An Admiral said that despite the problems the ships were doing well.
The cooling problems experienced were not covered by the warranty and would be paid for by the taxpayer.
Knowing what I know,it looks like the builder is getting the blame,but wewont peruse him
nothing about the MOD incompetence in choosing the wrong type of engine.
Regards
Vic

j.sabourn
22nd July 2016, 11:18 AM
Vic, I worked for the best part of 4 plus years for the MOD. During that time we were taken the heat off the oldest commissioned ship the Navy had (apart from HMS Victory) which was HMS ( name will come back to me after written this) she had one similar part to Victory as she also had a sail. The Navy at the time was in the process of building a more modern vessel HMS Challenger and she was completed after the Falklands war, but low and behold the story went that she had asbestos built into her structure, and as some of HM ships had burned excessively when hit by also having this built into them as well. Think she was dispensed with shortly after. Which was good for the owners I worked for as they got a few more years charter out of the ship I was on. However thinking back on merchant ships didn't the big scare of asbestos raise its ugly head before 1985, perhaps others can remember better than me. I know no one in Australia will touch the stuff. JWS

Ivan Cloherty
22nd July 2016, 01:46 PM
In the 50's and 60's most of us sailed with asbestos lagged pipes running through our cabins and washrooms etc

Hugh
22nd July 2016, 02:26 PM
During that time we were taken the heat off the oldest commissioned ship the Navy had (apart from HMS Victory) which was HMS ( name will come back to me after written this)JWS

That would be HMS RECLAIM, John. She was decommissioned in 1979, 3 years after I joined up.

Regards
Hugh

j.sabourn
25th July 2016, 01:34 AM
Thanks Hugh. I just got out of bed and was looking for the post as suddenly remembered HMS Reclaim, so maybe not getting Alhzeimers just yet. What you say may explain a few things. Think it was 1980 that NATO Tornado came down in the Irish Sea. They had 2 of a crew who did not eject, and was supposed to have hit the water at 1000 knots.The Reclaim was with us at the time and there were a couple of requests from her which seemed a bit bizarre at the time for a Navy ship, so maybe they had brought her back out of mothballs in a hurry. She was less than a quarter of a mile away and at about 2300 she called us up saying she had an emergency and may have a diver with the bends. Not thinking too much about it I jumped into the Zodiac and was across there within a few minutes he was passed down on a stretcher, and I went zooming back to own ship. I realized then that I was in the middle of the Irish sea by myself and the casuality, as it turned out the The Reclaim had recontacted my ship and the naval surgeon was waiting to stick him in the de-compression chamber, Another time he asked us to put a boarding party on a suspected Russian trawler and check his nets for pieces of aircraft. The 2 I sent acoss were another 2 Macs one from Stornaway and one from the Isle of skye. They were 2 hefty blokes but on getting over the trawlers bulwark they were accosted by the little fiery skipper from Hull who told them to get off his effing ship. They came back with red faces and no wreckage I may add. Whenever I saw the Reclaim after that she was at the buoy in Portsmouth with the usual white line painted fore and aft at water level, so could see at a glance whether she was sinking or not. Cheers Thanks for Info. JWS

robpage
25th July 2016, 03:26 PM
Only once did I ever come across the Royal Naval ship design department would use to be many years ago based at Bath and all I can say is that I was disappointed in their understanding of the Engineering they were looking at on a ferry regarding the main propulsion units which they were looking at adapting for submarine use

Speaking to Falklands veterans I can't know anyone of them who had a good word to say for the Royal Navy school of ship design

Ivan Cloherty
25th July 2016, 03:59 PM
Many moons ago I was doing business with the M O D and had to take my designs to H.M.S. ?????, Bath, I thought bloody hell they're off course, I was dealing with RN types who'd never been to sea, but when leaving the RN they were classed as veterans

j.sabourn
26th July 2016, 01:11 AM
I found that R.N. trained specialists were the best going. But were experts in their own field only, you couldn't take a gunnery officer and expect him to do signals. In fact you couldn't take a navigational officer and expect him to work out a sight without the appropriate printed sheets telling him more or less what to do.I found this out much to my dismay. Yet a commissoned officer on leaving the RN can apply and get a certificate of service as Master F.G or 1st class engineer. I cant speak for the engineer as sailed with one who was a very good shipmate, but as regards the deck side they had no knowledge of most merchant navy duties little regarding stability and as regards cargo work next to nothing. Work all round in general I found was placed at the Petty officers door. Those that left with a cert. of service as master, would generally fit in on a passenger vessel where they would be acceptable for the entertainment of passengers. On a general cargo ship they were mainly a pain in the ass. JWS

Ivan Cloherty
26th July 2016, 07:22 AM
I found that R.N. trained specialists were the best going. But were experts in their own field only, On a general cargo ship they were mainly a pain in the ass. JWS

I sailed with them, on more than one occasion! out of their depth

John Arton
26th July 2016, 11:51 AM
Whilst flying down from Newcastle to London one time there were a number of "executives" from the Bath Naval Base in Bath which is the design and procurement base for the engineering side of the Royal Navy. At that time there was still ship building and repair on the Tyne. They had driven from Bath to Heathrow, flown up to Newcastle, had lunch at the yards expense, discussed the type of paint to be used on a new build destroyer along with some other technical issues, and were flying back down to Heathrow in order to drive back to Bath so they could be home to wifey for dinner.
What was the topic of there conversation? Problems with paint? problems with machinery?
No
Their main interest was what luxury car they were going to hire in Heathrow for their journey back to Bath!!!
I know that security would be an issue in a public place but they had been having conversations about the issues they had flown up to see (which from what I could gather could have all been discussed during a telephone conversation.
The M.O.D. and the Navy in particular has never brought in one of its vessels on budget to this day. Even after approving the plans submitted by the yard they constantly change the design and outfit, moving bulkheads by inches after they have been built etc.
If it was run on commercial lines then the defence budget could be safely cut by billions and we would still have a fleet of vessels that actually work and are fit for purpose.
Mind you manning them is a different matter. At the moment the RN is having real problems manning its submarines as those on board do not have access to Facebook, ahhh! bless their little cotton socks, those hairy assed matelots!!!!!
rgds
JA

Fouro
26th July 2016, 11:54 AM
The German and French frigates don't appear to have any faults with their engines.

MTU Diesel Gensets Ordered for UK Combat (http://www.marinelink.com/news/gensets-ordered-diesel409520.aspx)

FOURO.

Captain Kong
26th July 2016, 12:02 PM
I was on watch on a Tanker loaded with 15,000 tons of Aviation Spirit.
We were anchored in the Firth of Forth awaiting a berth. with the appropriate Anchor Ball on the fore stay.
I then saw a RN Mine Sweeper sail from Rosyth and was heading directly at my starboard beam.
I watched with the Bins and as he got closer and closer, I could see about 12 people in their wheelhouse.
I decided to contact him to see what he was going to do.
He replied, "You there, don't you know the Rules? get out of my way. you are on my Port side and I am on your Starboard side. You are the give way vessel."
So I replied, SHOUTING as he was almost on top of me. "i AM AT ANCHOR, WITH THE ANCHOR BALL ON THE FORE MAST. " I just heard the words `Oh Shat`! He went hard a Starboard, skidded round on one bilge keel and just missed me by inches.
I called the Queens Harbour Master at Rosyth, He said he had monitored the situation and would have him in the Office when he returned.
Cheers
Brian

Ivan Cloherty
26th July 2016, 01:11 PM
If it was run on commercial lines then the defence budget could be safely cut by billions
rgds
JA

I was an approved contractor to the RN, (and once your in you're in for life if you want) one contract was enough for me!

Had to sign the Officials Secrets Act, (no problem with that)so cannot say too much, but John's line above will never happen.

Apart from all the form filling (all requiring numerous signatures from them), having to finance their requirements for months after delivery was not my way of doing business, having to ferry their representatives and their wives around, having to feed them and their wives, and having innumerable discussions on paint, rather than technical aspects was not my idea of a well run organisation, so much time wasted that could have been better spent on other commercial prospects. Contractors inflate their prices because they have to finance expensive loans so that they can purchase materials and pay their staff, because they know that they will not receive monies from the M O D for months and even years, and thus it will ever be because nobody in the M O D / Govt has the guts to change it. I could live without the so called prestige of being an 'Official Supplier', but I couldn't live being one!

Fouro
26th July 2016, 06:08 PM
Re Number 18.
Reading your post Brian started me thinking what could have happened had that minesweeper rammed into the side of your fully laden tanker.
Going back to the mid 1950's, we were carrying a full cargo of high octane spirit, when two days out of port the ship's carpenter was saved from trying to commit suicde. The reason why the poor soul was trying to take his own life was, he had received a dear John letter at the last port of call. It often goes through my mind had he decided to drop a lighted newspaper or similar article with a naked flame into one of the cargo tanks, our ship and all of us would have been blown to smithereens.
Did you ever receive a written report about captain Pighead from the Queen's Harbour Master at Rosyth?.

FOURO.

Captain Kong
26th July 2016, 07:00 PM
Hi Fouro,
No never hard anything about it after.
But the Queens Harbour Master was not at all amused by the Minesweepers actions. and said he would be severely reprimanded when he returned.
There are so many people on the bridge of those Navy Ships that no one knows what is happening.
Cheers
Brian.

Hugh
26th July 2016, 07:43 PM
Lack of proper navigation aboard any ship is inexcuseable no matter whether merchant or naval. I have served on minesweepers, frigates and an aircraft carrier and and yes there were more on the bridge (including me) than your normal merchant ship. But you have to remember that we had different roles from a cargo ship or a tanker. You cannot run a warship with a small crew given all the different watches we had to maintain. I have served aboard both RN and MN ships and I have seen good and bad seamanship on both. I get a bit hacked off when I hear navy and matelot bashing on the MN sites I frequent.

Regards
Hugh

Ivan Cloherty
26th July 2016, 08:09 PM
I get a bit hacked off when I hear navy and matelot bashing on the MN sites I frequent.

Regards
Hugh

Alas Hugh, it is the nature of the beast and have no doubt it happens vice versa on RN ships, those of us who have first hand experience of such happenings can only recount what we have experienced. As one Admiral who had been in charge on Aircraft carriers and destroyers said to me last year (or year before) I admire you MN chaps when you bring a ship alongside with so few people, we have bridges and decks covered with people and still manage to make a balls up, his words not mine. Last week speaking to one RN officer he said how the hell did you manage with only one screw, we can only speak as we find.

On a social visit to a Coniston Class minesweeper in Suez November 1956, I was surprised at the informality between all ranks, we had more bullshit on our MN vessel, the complement were all very young probably serving out their National Service, we were also young. Said they would rather be on a minesweeper than a vessel with 6000 tons of high explosives on board

robpage
26th July 2016, 08:33 PM
In all fairness you the individuals I've met of Royal Navy Officers , chief Petty officers , Petty officers , and all the others almost to man I've been individually pretty good blokes , I found some of the reserve officers to be so far up their own inflated ego they were 15 feet tall and went to save a two weeks every year normally with a chief Petty Officer to prop them up so they didn't make too much of a hash of it the ferry is used to take them for a few days but trying to teach them what it was like especially when it was a bit rough out there for the minesweepers I used to feel really sorry for the chief escorting them

When it comes to the Royal Naval School of Engineering which was it but I don't know if it's still there which I believe is now known as the Royal Corps of naval constructors I have come across once I remember they had funny titles like constructor lieutenant . We had Pielstick engines built by Crossley in Manchester . We took a little time of these people who had designed the engine into a submarine to see what the performances were like compared to the suggested performance of the engine . They were designing a diesel engined submarine at the time . I said the submarines will have to be quite a big vessel this idiot constructor asked why and I said well how are you going to get the pistons in and out . He was a bit nippy and said well you lot manage it don't you so I showed him the plug on the car deck that we're removed and brought the forklift in the lift them out according to this brainless expert I have ruined 2 years of his research the silly Pratt hadn't measured the Damned Engine start to finish and allowed for it to be worked on I'm afraid I was left thinking if that is a brains that are designing ships for the Royal Navy god help us .

as far as I'm concerned jolly jack no matter what is job is a great bloke to sail with having sailed with many on various shipping companies and I have worked ashore with many too but I am afraid the constructors left me feeling that the navy was let down

Hugh
26th July 2016, 09:16 PM
On a social visit to a Coniston Class minesweeper in Suez November 1956, I was surprised at the informality between all ranks, we had more bullshit on our MN vessel, the complement were all very young probably serving out their National Service, we were also young. Said they would rather be on a minesweeper than a vessel with 6000 tons of high explosives on board

Yes, Ivan, all the sweepers I sailed in ran a small ship routine - no bull and I probably enjoyed that time the best.

I had a lot of respect for the crews of the MN ships that I served aboard - they were mostly good seamen.

I can't speak for today's RN - far too long away from it now but I can honestly say that I never heard one OOW be anything other than courteous and respectful to their counterparts on other ships. Again only my experience and my job only required me on the bridge on small ships so maybe I was lucky that way. But you get ****holes and idiots in every walk of life even in the MN.

Regards
Hugh

Doc Vernon
26th July 2016, 09:40 PM
My adopted Granddaughter "Courtney" who is in the RAN has told me that on large Ships she has served on that not all Crew are that Friendly amongst all ratings ,but still most get along well.
Suppose they have to so as to get the running of the Ship in first class order!

However she has been transferred to a smaller Mine Detector Ship the HMAS Yarra ,and has found that it is so much more Friendly and easy going ,with the much smaller Crew numbers!
But I suppose like anything else in Work, large Companies for example are not as good with all staff getting on together,but the smaller ones are!
Suppose too many Cooks !! LOL

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/RAN-IFR_2013_D3_81.JPG/600px-RAN-IFR_2013_D3_81.JPG

Ivan Cloherty
26th July 2016, 10:13 PM
On small ships Doc, you soon find out who is not pulling their weight, on big ships you can hide your failings, on small ships, no chance

Agree Hugh there are also many ar*eholes on MN ships, as in all walks of life, but I did find less at sea than I did in my shore life, no back stabbing at sea, you got where you were by ability, although you did wonder in some cases!. We can look back on our sea life with fondness although at times we wished we were elsewhere, so glad I did it.

j.sabourn
27th July 2016, 02:23 AM
Vernon your picture of the naval ship is of a near exact design as I worked with when employed by the MOD. Although the RN referred to them as Mine Hunters. The ship I was on was mixed RN and MN crew. Any MN crew member who was a stirrer or trouble maker was soon taken off and sent elsewhere.It was the Admiralty, they had a big say on the manning, and the diving officer was the one who made the reports on the competency of both RN and MN crews. I can honestly say it was the best 4 years of my life at sea and saw no problems with the way the ship was run, it was with great regret that they took me off and sent me back on the anchor handlers. I think someone else had heard what a good job it was, and wanted their turn. They looked out for their own people in a way I have never seen done by a shipowner, even to the extent of having their own drying out farm. We had one RN personnel who had this problem who had been twice to the farm and was told on the third time happening was told he would lose his pension. I wont say it stopped his drinking but certainly curtailed it when under observation.The last time I saw him was when some admiral was flown out to the ship to present him with his 30 year service medal, which he termed 30 years of not being found out. His drinking problem had no ref to the award, as it was said that the navy took you as a boy and taught you how to drink so therefore took some of the blame. As I said my short time working with the navy found very satisfying, we ran the ship and laid the 4 point moors did all ship maintainance, the NAVY all the diving and technical problems that went with it. Cheers JWS

j.sabourn
27th July 2016, 04:48 AM
As regards other small RN vessels being conversions from merchant vessels to HM ships spent 3 days on trials in the Bristol Channel before the flag being changed and the handing over of the vessel. Yes she had double the complement of merchant seafarers that would have normaly been there, but she was doing a different job as would have probably been the first and last line of defense on any incursions into the islands. She had a bofors gun fitted on each wing of the bridge, the port gun was manned by the ships cooks. The starboard gun by the contingent of 6 Royal marines and their sergeant major. She had 2 very fast attack FRCs with muffled engines about as quite as you can get an outboard to be. She had a housing with a heat seeking machine that could pick up body heat at 5 miles. All her ballast tanks not in use were filled with ping pong balls which apparently is a naval concoction to give the ship reserve buoyancy, so I for one learned something new. All round the bridge were posts for dropping automatic weapons on to. All this takes manpower. For those of you who followed this conflict from the very beginning will remember the first landing of argie forces was on to South Georgia which had a small contingent of Royal Marines in charge was another sergeant Major, someone told me the Sergeant Major was a peculiar title given to Royal Marines where the actual rank was sergeant. However the bloke in charge was forced to lay down their arms. I met him a few times and on the final handing over of the ship on trials was going with her and couldn't wait to get back, and try and redeem the fact they had to lay down their arms. JWS

John Arton
31st July 2016, 09:00 AM
All 5 of the Navy's D class frigates are in port at the moment for repairs, crew change, routine maintenance etc.
Engines are still useless and most likely will have to be changed.
Labour 'saddled Navy ships with dodgy engines' (http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/labour-saddled-navy-ships-with-dodgy-engines/ar-BBv3yGn?li=AA59G2&ocid=spartandhp)
rgds
JA

vic mcclymont
31st July 2016, 09:46 AM
John, sorry to correct you,all sx are tied up n Portsmouth.
Regards
Vic

John Arton
31st July 2016, 09:55 AM
John, sorry to correct you,all sx are tied up n Portsmouth.
Regards
Vic
no problems vic, 5 and 6 are next to each other on the keyboard.
sx? have forwarded your email to Gulliver for proof reading or is sx some sort of midlands code? LOL
rgds
JA

Captain Kong
31st July 2016, 09:57 AM
Argentina must be very happy with the news. They said it would take 3 weeks for a warship to get to the Falklands, They could be in control by then,
We once had the best Navy in the world patrolling world wide. Our politicians have destroyed more of our Royal Navy and Merchant Navy ships that all the German UBOATS and battleships destroyed in two world wars.
They should all be charged with High Treason and disposed of accordingly
Brian

Keith Tindell
31st July 2016, 10:21 AM
Certainly right there Brian, as a kid i can remember visiting relatives in Portsmouth, and being taken to Southsea front to sea the Naval review, the solent smothered in RN ships, kt

Captain Kong
31st July 2016, 10:35 AM
I was in the Sea Cadets from 1948 to 1952 and always did training on the Battleship HMS DUKE OF YORK, who had sank the Scharnhorst and the Cruisers HMS DIDO and SYRIUS, also the Gunnery courses in HMS EXCELLENT on Whale Island
The Reserve Fleet in Portsmouth was a fantastic sight, Battle Ships, Carriers, Cruisers Destroyers etc as far a the eye could see.
always had a big fleet at sea, including at the Korean War.
Only the USA had a bigger fleet than us,
"Hey Limie, how`s the worlds second biggest Navy going on"?.... "Great, How`s the worlds second best?" then the fights start.
Brian