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Frederick Lacey
22nd September 2015, 02:58 PM
Four Cops Refused To Help Arrest.

Four police face the sack for allegedly refusing to arrest a thief called Fagan as he fought a security guard
because they were "not tooled up"
A Tesco manager flagged down their patrol car as his staff grappled with shoplifter Roy Fagan outside the store.
But David Markey was furious when they allegedly drove off because they did not have the right gear.
Security man Shaun Rigby was left to apprehend Fagan, 31, alone while being kicked and kneed in the head
in Liverpool, a disciplinary hearing was told yesterday.
PCs Jonathan Webb, 48, Mark Higgins, 29, Paul Birch, 36, and Joanne Parr, in her 20s face gross misconduct charges.
It is claimed PC Webb said. "We are not tooled or kitted up"
CCTV footage of the incident was shown at the Merseyside hearing.
Fagan had admitted assault and stealing alcohol and received an eight week suspended sentence.
James Berry, for Merseyside Police, said the officers' denial of hearing or seeing the "struggle" was "extraordinary".
Mr Rigby told the panel,"I was left vulnerable in the situation, I was pretty much "left out to dry. The hearing continues.



Typical of the police and courts in this country, usually they arrest the victims and give the criminals a slap on the wrist.
Why a suspended sentence he's a thief so lock him up. and as for the police sack them if they can't do their job.
They are only interested in one thing, a big pension after 30 years.


F

Jim Brady
22nd September 2015, 03:29 PM
Fred what has this got todo with Wirral ? as far as I am aware it was on Dale Street Liverpool city centre.
Regards.
Jim.B.

Ivan Cloherty
22nd September 2015, 04:03 PM
Does it matter where it was, the report, if proved correct, is a damning indictement on the attitudes of these four police officers

Jim Brady
22nd September 2015, 04:45 PM
Of course it matters where it was it didn't happen in Africa it happened in Liverpool.!!!!
Regards.
Jim.B.

Ivan Cloherty
22nd September 2015, 05:46 PM
Of course it matters where it was it didn't happen in Africa it happened in Liverpool.!!!!
Regards.
Jim.B.

For Gods sake Jim, I was talking about anywhere within the UK, where the hell does Africa enter the picture. Suggest you put the stopper back in the whisky bottle!

Jim Brady
22nd September 2015, 06:10 PM
Ivan the headline is Wirral Wimps when the story has nothing todo with the Wirral.I posted what was fact,it happened in Liverpool why you had to come on and be confrontational is beyond me whats your problem looking for an argument.It didn't happen anywhere in the UK as you suggest and the snide remark to put the stopper back in the whisky bottle is in very bad taste and something I would never dream of saying to somebody, how low can you go.For your information I don't drink whisky or any other spirit.
Regards.
Jim.B.

gray_marian
22nd September 2015, 07:40 PM
"In the name of the wee man" lighten up for gawd's sake Jim "The Wirral" is all of 15 miles from Dale St, :)

Jim Brady
22nd September 2015, 07:48 PM
I wouldn't like to get dragged that far by my balls.!!!!!
Regards.
Jim.B.

Chris Allman
22nd September 2015, 08:25 PM
AH I see that someone has got their facts very wrong. As a resident of the Wirral, it would be nice if people could find their way to getting their information correct before leaping into print. The incident, to put it crudely has got absolutely F all to do with the Wirral and its residents, as it happened on the other side of that bloody big river Mersey, in the Liverpool City Centre. I suggest the poster get a map out and have a look, glasses could help too.

john gill
22nd September 2015, 08:32 PM
"In the name of the wee man" lighten up for gawd's sake Jim "The Wirral" is all of 15 miles from Dale St, :)

Most of that on water Marian.

Jim Brady
22nd September 2015, 08:37 PM
Chris there was no way I was being funny in anyway with Fred I simply asked him what did the case have todo with the Wirral,maybe he read about it and the Wirral was mentioned somewhere along the line.I was awaiting his reply when Ivan jumped in ranting on where there was no need to.The top and bottom of it is it happened in Liverpool so why try and put it somewhere else,I don't know what map puts it 15 miles away Dale street to the Wirral could be done in 3 miles I imagine.
Regards.
Jim.B.

john gill
22nd September 2015, 08:44 PM
Perhaps the police officers who are being investigated for the Dale St incident reside 'over the water' on the Wirral.

Chris Allman
22nd September 2015, 08:54 PM
Jim no probs, I just think people should get their facts straight, it does not take much. The only connection that the Wirral has with this incident in Liverpool is that we share the same Police Force as you know, other than that we are separated by water and have a totally separate Council etc.

John I dont know where they live as nothing has been released by the press and would suspect it wont be either.

Jim Brady
22nd September 2015, 09:05 PM
They are from Eaton Road police station West Derby.They were on their way to a briefing maybe this is what they mean when they say the weren't tooled up.Three of them say they knew nothing about it,the Tesco manager spoke to a guy in the front seat they didn't hear what was said and they did not see the security guard rolling around on the floor with the accused.We will soon find out.I notice that they are in civvies to attend court.
Regards.
Jim.b.

gray_marian
22nd September 2015, 09:17 PM
#9, No problem admitting when I have made a mistake Chris, and I stand corrected, so you can dreep off your high horse now.
As for F'ing about it Chris or Jim being crude about it shows the measure of a man....when humour would have sufficed. However me being 'CLEVER' an' all should have realised both of you are reverting to type as in posts of yore.:rolleyes:

I have never been to the Wirral so thank you Gilly for enlightening me. :)

gray_marian
22nd September 2015, 09:39 PM
#13, 'get their facts straight,' Jeeze make up you minds you two. Gave Jim plenty of facts on the Democracy thread regarding #Scargill#179 and #184 coal and receive a churlish reply#191 accused of being too 'clever'
Quivering in my boots here.....Chris 'THAT WOMAN':rolleyes:..... Mmm wonder what the organ grinder and his monkey will say now....NOT:rofl:

Chris Allman
22nd September 2015, 10:03 PM
Marion I have made no mention nor referred to you whatsoever, so I do not know where got got that from at all. I was and continued to refer to Fred and the fact that the incident took place in Liverpool not the Wirral. If you wish to get involved and call me names for some reason then that's up to you, and with regard to being crude, I seem to remember a number of jokes on here being posted which were a lot more crude than my letter F. Good night sleep tight.

Ivan Cloherty
22nd September 2015, 10:14 PM
Ivan the headline is Wirral Wimps when the story has nothing todo with the Wirral.I posted what was fact,it happened in Liverpool why you had to come on and be confrontational is beyond me whats your problem looking for an argument.It didn't happen anywhere in the UK as you suggest and the snide remark to put the stopper back in the whisky bottle is in very bad taste and something I would never dream of saying to somebody, how low can you go.For your information I don't drink whisky or any other spirit.
Regards.
Jim.B.

For Christs sake Jim I cannot understand why you took offence at my #3, I neither mentioned Wirral or Liverpool and all of a sudden I'm in Africa, for f**ks sake lighten up and I don't see any thing confrontational in my later post either, all I commented upon initially was the conduct (alleged) of the named officers.

We all know that Liverpool is the centre of the universe and we mention it at our peril, from past posts we're not even allowed to praise it, unless we are a scouser.

Lighten up, and if you want to keep on ranting at me feel free to do so, it ain't going to change my life, and as for the stopper in the bottle you certainly exploded the myth that scousers have a sense of humour!

Frederick Lacey
22nd September 2015, 10:22 PM
Just got home.....OOPS didn't want to cause any problems, perhaps I should have put Lancashire Police,
I don't think it's in your interest there to have a force that runs away from trouble, they don't make them
like they used to, there's to much political correctness involved now. F.

Chris Allman
22nd September 2015, 10:34 PM
Fred, its Merseyside Police that the officers are from not Lancashire and yes it does not put the force, which is normally pretty good in what they do, in a very good light. If the officers have done what they are alleged to have done, then the force could do without them and they should get the sack. Wirral is not a bad place, I dont know any wimps here, I am sure you would agree if you visited it.

gray_marian
22nd September 2015, 10:58 PM
#17, Chris you have replied in a civil manner which I appreciate and I shall do like wise. You stated 'PEOPLE' should get their facts straight,' since only I got them spectacularly wrong and not Fred I think you are being ever so slightly mischievously misleading... Not once did you mention Fred. However I will bow to what you say.

As to my jokes, [nothing much of late] I will not comment here, a public forum, only because I do not wish to embarrass or snitch on certain individuals. I own what I say on here Chris and apologise if it's deemed fit. You and some others do not approve of my sense of humour and that's fine, I personally believe there have been worse things said on here occasionally but wouldn't dream on running to a moderator.. Said enough already, if you want a pm, will oblige. Please note Chris anything in
inverted commas refer's to what you have called me before! Refrained from stating the others... I bid you goodnight

happy daze john in oz
23rd September 2015, 05:38 AM
Never let the truth get in the way of a good story, maybe the cops were on their way to smoko. As for you guys arguing about it I can see handbags at ten paces at this rate.

Jim Brady
23rd September 2015, 07:59 AM
As it happened Fred had the story wrong so Ivan had you waited for Freds reply instead of jumping in with both feet which I told you about 18 months ago you make a habit of all this bad mouthing would've been avoided.
Marian I don't need educating by you regarding Scargill and coal maybe I didn't read the posts.I've just noticed on the Democracy site you say the only tabloid you have foisted on you is the Liverpool Echo is this referring to my posts on this site regarding all things maritime that happen in Liverpool all I can say to you, you don't have to read it and I do not foist it on anybody.I thought it was a popular thread with our members,maybe it is not so I'l refrain from posting in future if it is against the members wishes.
Regards.
Jim.B.

Fouro
23rd September 2015, 10:18 AM
Isn't it amazing how the main subject of the thread is cast aside because two members are acting like a pair of "richt auld sweetie wives, they'd cause a row in an empty hoose".
It's sad, very sad indeed.

FOURO.

gray_marian
23rd September 2015, 10:19 AM
#23, Throw away your shovel Jim otherwise there were be two tunnels for the migrants.
You asked for info on Scargill and you got it.....and didn't like it,:rolleyes: as for your tabloid of choice, post away Jim. No gagging order authorized by me.:)

Stan Carter
23rd September 2015, 11:12 AM
think a big " time out " is needed, this could go on for ever.
regards, stan.

Jim Brady
23rd September 2015, 11:19 AM
There is no more to be said on the matter as far as I am concerned Stan.what I may do is report on the findings of the committee which is taking place right now.
Regards.
Jim.B.

happy daze john in oz
23rd September 2015, 12:15 PM
There is no more to be said on the matter as far as I am concerned Stan.what I may do is report on the findings of the committee which is taking place right now.
Regards.
Jim.B.

And when they come back I do belive it is your round Jim, pint of lager if you don't mind.

gray_marian
23rd September 2015, 01:02 PM
Mine is a Moscow Mule please. I'll buy the second:hair_raising: Quick Gilly get your order in:p

john gill
23rd September 2015, 01:52 PM
Mine is a Moscow Mule please. I'll buy the second:hair_raising: Quick Gilly get your order in:p

Vodka makes me cry Marian. Especially when it's my round.

Jim Brady
23rd September 2015, 02:56 PM
One PC dismissed without notice.
One given final written warning.
Two to receive words of advice from management.

It would appear they were flagged down by shop manager,front seat passenger wound down window had short conversation with manager (not sure if 9 seconds long) where manager asked for help,window wound up and drove off.Two PC's in back seat didn't hear what was said,no charges and will be advised to listen out in future whilst in back seat.Front seat passenger who spoke to manager dismissed.Driver written warning.
Regards.
Jim.B.

j.sabourn
24th September 2015, 04:59 AM
When I saw the name Fagan my mind immediately jumped to Oliver Twist and the Artful Dodger, were any of the characters involved called PC Dickens, Dodger or Twist. Years ago when my wife was proceeding towards one of the Channel ports in an old Ambulance which the Monkseaton Morris and Country Dance club used and which was written on the trucks side. They were stopped by a police patrol car, thinking something was wrong they all scrambled out about 20 of them. Expecting a ticket for an unworthy vehicle they were told there was nothing wrong but wanted to know where Monkseaton was. Apparently one was called PC Monk and the other PC Seaton. JS

j.sabourn
24th September 2015, 05:13 AM
29 # Gilly says he"ll have a Molotov Cocktail, no ice. As is thinking of the shrinking arctic and antarctic Circle getting less in diameter by the hour. I'll just have a beer as long as someone else is paying. Cheers JS

happy daze john in oz
24th September 2015, 06:04 AM
Bit tough on the PC but if you do not do your job then too bad. If we cannot rely on the police then we are in real strife.

Jim Brady
24th September 2015, 07:43 AM
The sad part about this is the sacked officer had 15 years good service in,now without a job and a mark against his character.The B/std that caused the problem (shoplifter)I think got 7 weeks suspended sentence.Here is the footage where the police stopped,I think it was nine seconds.
Regards.
Jim.B.

Watch: CCTV footage shows the moment police drove off without helping Tesco security guard tackle thief - Liverpool Echo (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/watch-cctv-footage-shows-moment-10120348)

gray_marian
24th September 2015, 12:58 PM
#35, The sad part Jim was the arrogance of this particular Police Officer, and the other three for not questioning his decision. Lucky for him and the security guard the shoplifter did not have a knife. Still he'll have plenty time now to reflect, unless of course an appeal looms.:rolleyes:

John Arton
25th September 2015, 06:49 AM
Many of todays police are pretty rubbish with unfortunately Scottish police seeming to lead the way.
Two recent incidents in Scotland.
1. Despite being reported by a number of people, police failed to investigate for three days a car crash on the side of a Scottish motorway resulting in the trapped occupants dying due to no one investigating the crashed car (also does not say much for the general public not investigating)
2. An elderly lady suffering from dementia? went missing and despite her been seen and reported on CCTV, police failed to act on this information with the result that the lady was found dead a few days later.
Usual B.S. from the head of the force, budget cuts, must review our reporting system etc. etc.
rgds
JA

John Pruden
25th September 2015, 08:32 AM
the top and bottom of all these posts whether Wirral Liverpool or Timbuktu once you become a copper its down to the duty of the public serve and protect and if you cant or think you will get your uniform a bit dirty then you should not be in the job easy?? jp

gray_marian
25th September 2015, 11:11 AM
#37, (also does not say much for the general public not investigating) To be fair John, the car was only visible only from a country road running parallel with the embankment of the M9. Between these two roads is a huge field, various trees and shrubbery
and too far from the country road to have any interior view. Only access would have been by tractor. No animals graze there so need need for supervision by a farmer. Most driving past probably thought joy riders had abandoned a car.
Chief Constable Sir Stephen House, Scotland's most senior police officer will stand down from his post within three months, bringing forward his departure by nearly 12 months!!

"Opposition parties are piling pressure on the governing Scottish nationalists to reform Scotlandís two-year-old unified police service, saying the departure of its chief constable will not be enough to restore confidence in the troubled force.
Opponents of the SNP see policing as a weak point in the partyís eight-year record in office that could help to limit the governing nationalistsí expected gains in next yearís Scottish parliamentary elections."

Excerpt from the FT

John Albert Evans
25th September 2015, 03:49 PM
Speaking as an ex Police Officer, he deserved to be sacked. When I joined the oath that you took began The protection of Life and Property. In not assisting the store detective he failed the very oath he took.

John Albert Evans

Jim Brady
25th September 2015, 04:33 PM
John from what I read the strength of the conversation was if it's true.Store manager to constable front seat passenger "can you help us boys I think someone is trying to rob in the shop" I didn't read anywhere that the security guard and shoplifter were on the floor and apparently none of the police knew about them rolling around on the floor.The security guard did not want any of the policemen tobe dismissed.This is the first time that policemen have had to go before a panel where the general public were allowed in.
Regards.
Jim.B.

John Albert Evans
25th September 2015, 04:52 PM
Jim,

I do not know what conversation went on between the store manager and the Police Officer but if what you say is correct and I have no reason to doubt that then he should have gone in there to investigate and if need be arrest the shoplifter.
As he didn't ,then that is dereliction of duty and he should be dissmissed. As an officer with 15 years service he knew that it was his duty and he didn't do it.

John Albert Evans

Jim Brady
25th September 2015, 05:13 PM
John of course he should be fired for not carrying out his duties.All I am saying there is mitigating circumstances people who have passed comment on here don't know the full circumstances.The officers were not on duty in that area at the time of the offence they were just passing through as they were heading to a meeting.As far as I am concerned the policemen who were responsible for the 96 Liverpool fans loosing their lives and then covering up the evidence should have their police pension taken off them and sent to gaol for a very long time no way would I cover up for a rogue policeman.
Regards.
Jim.B.

vic mcclymont
25th September 2015, 05:46 PM
The sentence was harsh in my mind.
In the old days Policeman whilst travelling to and from duty were expected to answer pleas for help.
In todays Health & Safety and PC culture Police are not expected to assist whilst off duty.
In all probability if they had assisted and were injured, no doubt the top brass would have flung the book at them.
Damed if you do damned if you don't
Regards
Vic

John Albert Evans
25th September 2015, 05:51 PM
Jim,

I agree with the comments re the actions of the officers at Hillsborough, in my opinion they should be jailed for perverting the course of justice. With regards to mitigating circumstances of the Liverpool officers that they were not on duty, well for me that wont wash.

John Albert Evans.

John Pruden
26th September 2015, 07:52 AM
john they are on duty as soon as they climb into that uniform any officer weather on duty or not have the knowledge to apprehend a criminal? I always said about the murder of the young drummer rigby why did any officer in a police car or van not run over the killers instead of waiting I am sure one on here would not have hesitated in acting in such a manner ? jp

John Arton
26th September 2015, 09:20 AM
Another question to ask. If they were not on duty why were they driving around in a police car?
O.K. so they supposedly were on their way to a "meeting". Now we assume that this meeting was a official one to do with their work so effectively they were on duty. If it was nothing to do with their work then they could also be accused of using a police vehicle for a joy ride.
Just a thought.
rgds
JA

Stan Carter
26th September 2015, 04:14 PM
John, I agree with on that. does not matter if you are in civvies or uniform and in a force vehicle you are on duty. same as not being on duty and out shopping and seeing an officer, or a civilian trying to arrest for a serious incident, you would go to help. if you didn't and it came to light, you would be in for a hard time. At least that's how it works over here, not much respect for elf and safety if a colleague is in trouble.
regards, stan