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happy daze john in oz
20th October 2014, 05:48 AM
There has been much discussion on site as to the safety of ships at sea today, in particular cruise ships. Many now carry 3,000 plus passengers as well as crew so in an emergency there are a lot of people to move.
Many of the members consider the ships to be unsafe because of the numbers and the shape of the ships.

For most the depth below the water line is about 25 feet, but in this space is all the major weight of the ship, engines, fuel, water, stores, bilges etc. Consider a shuttlecock, all the weight is at the base with the centre hollow, very much the same with these ships.


As to major disasters at sea, the Titanic, Andrea Doria, Costa Concordia, though this was an act of stupidity that brought about the disaster. In peace time since WW2 the number of major disasters at sea involving passengers ships of any kind is very low. More aircraft dissasters have occured. The biggst risk of disasters at sea is the risk of fire, running aground is highly unlikely with modern equipment available. Engine failure can occur but as most of the modern ships have three generators so it would be something very difficult for all to go off line at the same time.

The order to abandon ship is something that would not would be taken lightly, many things must b etaken into consideration first. Proximity of land, other ships, availability of rescue should the ship be abandoned. With all the modern equipment on ships of today I doubt any ship would be in serious danger at any time.


There may be some members who will not agree with what I have stated, it is my opinion, but for those who have journeyed on a modern ship what I have stated may make sence.

But of course in the unlikely event that a ship had to be abandonded human servival preference will come to the fore. No mattre how skilled the crew, how well they are trained human survival instinct will over ride it. All the life boats and life rafts in the world will be of little value if mass hysteria takes over.

Captain Kong
20th October 2014, 08:15 AM
I agree with that John
Feel much safer on a cruise ship than on a plane. No lifeboats at all on a plane , No parachutes, only one for the pilot so he can go for help.
I never sail with Greek or Italian Captains or Officers. Only British or Dutch.
I think it is many years since a disaster with a cruise ship.
I only have reservations with Cunard` lifeboat drill and their muster station is down below in a theatre, not on the Boat Deck under an assigned lifeboat as HAL does.
Cheers
Brian.

Keith Tindell
20th October 2014, 08:27 AM
I ask the question of most of the folk that i know who go cruising, some several times a year, and every single one of them has told me that lifeboat drill, the muster is in the theatre, and instructed by the entertainment crew in most cases. This theatre muster practise is widespread it seems, and in my opinion is a dire way to operate, and i believe time will tell. The only efficient way is for all passengers to muster at a designated lifeboat, where a roll call can be carried out, and lifejackets issued to anyone who is without one. Any seaman must know that the theatre method is designed for confusion, thats before you start to evacuate. just my opinion from someone who will never sail on those block of flats. KT

cappy
20th October 2014, 08:45 AM
###prob is no one seems to know were there lifeboat station is .....god help all the infirm persons when the lifts stop and the lights start to go off ......i have met folks after 3 or 4 days at sea asking me how do i get to my cabin on so and so deck.......i know that at some stage there will be a fire at sea and big loss of life on these mega chicken coops....as for just getting ashore .while waiting for the tenders to arrive they were pushing and shoving and crowding themselves into a narrow area and the temp was so high 2 women fainted ....and that was just to get ashore ......so in an emergency ie fire etc ....there would be a dog eat dog situation ...not like we would have had on cargo or tankers were we all new at least our position and job to be accomplished.......its a sure thing one of these will have a big prob and 3 or 4 thousnd people will be in very grave danger...regards cappy

cappy
20th October 2014, 08:56 AM
I agree with that John
Feel much safer on a cruise ship than on a plane. No lifeboats at all on a plane , No parachutes, only one for the pilot so he can go for help.
I never sail with Greek or Italian Captains or Officers. Only British or Dutch.
I think it is many years since a disaster with a cruise ship.
I only have reservations with Cunard` lifeboat drill and their muster station is down below in a theatre, not on the Boat Deck under an assigned lifeboat as HAL does.
Cheers
Brian.###so pleased to learn the pilot has a parachute and is going for help ......shall fly with great confidence now knowing the pilot will land rush to find a telephone ...or a drum if he lands in the jungle to tell the powers that be there is trouble on flight ###which is by now at least 2 or 4 hundred miles away...if still flying ...this makes me feel so secure i shall not take out insurance next time i fly rgards cappy

John Arton
20th October 2014, 09:54 AM
Most modern cruise liners are diesel electric driven with the generators in a separate compartment from the rest of the auxiliary machinery {purifiers, sewage treatment etc}. The electricity generated is fed into another separate compartment where it is converted and distributed to the propulsion motor, hotel load and cargo equipment etc. On the diesel electric tankers I sailed on this high voltage room was a sealed room requiring special procedures to be carried out before anyone could enter. These ships had 4 generators driven by diesel engines. This method of propulsion is favoured by the passenger liners as you can generate large amounts of electricity from a relatively small engine and these ships require large amounts of electricity for the hotel load. The electricity generated by a modern cruise ship is sufficient to power all the needs of a small town.
The propulsion method is by azipods usually. These are self contained propulsion units hung below the hull and can rotate through 360 degrees giving the ship excellent manoeuvrability which they require when berthing due to the high windage area.
So yes these ships are very safe but the Costa Concordia was a modern ship yet due to human error disaster still occurred.
The worst disaster that could happen is fire. Any fire causes almost mass panic. Whilst I was school one of my school pals was taken on a cruise by his parents and the ship they were on caught fire and they had to abandon ship. This was in the 60's and I think the ship was the "Laconia". This and the Scandinavian Star disaster where fire broke out and killed over a hundred souls led to great improvements in fire safety with automatic sprinklers and zoning of same, greater use of fire retardant materials etc but any fire, small or large can lead to mass panic. There was a case last year when an idiot on board the North Sea ferry from Newcastle to Ijmuiden set fire to his cabin whilst taking drugs. The fire was quickly contained and as the ship was in the North Sea it was able to return safely to port but helicopter evacuation was required for a number of passengers suffering from smoke inhalation and medical conditions brought on by stress {suspected heart attack}. Now envisage a similar event happening on one of these huge cruise liners. Say a fire broke out in the theatre {quite possible, lots of hot lights etc.} Mass panic would most likely occur and although the fire systems on board may be capable of containing and extinguishing the fire and the ships stability and propulsion etc. remain unaffected, would the ship have the capability to deal with possible hundreds of cases of smoke inhalation and heart attacks etc. amongst the many old or overweight passengers. This could occur many miles from any shore based assistance.
This is the disaster I envisage occurring as many of us have experienced small fires and seen the panic that it can cause even with a well trained crew. Now throw in a couple of thousand passengers many of whom could be children, elderly, overweight or have some medical condition and all of these are being marshalled by entertainers or staff who have little or no experience or training in crowd control and fire fighting and safety and there is your recipe for disaster. The ship will possibly remain afloat and safe but the by product could be hundreds killed or injured in the ensuing panic.
It will not stop the growth of the cruise industry because after all passenger numbers on airlines have not fallen after the recent airline disasters, so the cruise industry needs to start taking measures now to up their standards of training and improve their emergency procedures for all staff on board and that includes entertainers etc. so that they can handle any such disaster.
rgds
JA

Keith Moody
20th October 2014, 03:24 PM
I gon`t think you can compare disasters on cruise ships with aeroplanes, for at any one time there are thousands of planes flying the sky than cruise ships at sea, more people are killed on the road than through plane disasters.
should you ever experiance a ditching at sea on an aircraft then the seat cusions will float and the escape shutes become your lifeboat.
keith moody
R635978

John Pruden
20th October 2014, 04:01 PM
always sit on the black box {they always get that back working}. jp

Captain Kong
20th October 2014, 04:36 PM
I gon`t think you can compare disasters on cruise ships with aeroplanes, for at any one time there are thousands of planes flying the sky than cruise ships at sea, more people are killed on the road than through plane disasters.
should you ever experiance a ditching at sea on an aircraft then the seat cusions will float and the escape shutes become your lifeboat.
keith moody
R635978
.
,
They didnt on flight M370.
still no idea where it is after eight months..
Cheers

john gill
20th October 2014, 05:19 PM
A friend who works for BA tells me that if a plane falls out of the sky from 33,000 ft, whatever safety measures are in place, the impact would kill all on board. To crash on take off or landing would not be as catastrophic.
Gilly

Captain Kong
20th October 2014, 06:09 PM
I will think of that on my next flight, Thanks Gilly.
Cheers
Brian.

John Pruden
20th October 2014, 06:36 PM
just look at signs at airports... departure... terminal...that's enough to put the sh.tes up you? jp

gray_marian
20th October 2014, 10:50 PM
#10, John an excerpt from Wikipedia, regarding Pan Am Flight 103 flying over Lockerbie "The inquest heard that a flight attendant was found alive by a farmer's wife, but died before her discoverer could summon help. Two other passengers remained alive briefly after impact; medical authorities later concluded that one of these passengers might have survived if he had been found soon enough." The Pan Am Flight 103 was flying at 31,000ft....... That information always stayed with me.

happy daze john in oz
21st October 2014, 03:55 AM
As to boat drill on cruise ships today. It varies from comapny to company. P&O do it all in the main theatre. Princess and a couple of others do it in anumber of places. Each cabin is allocated a life boat station meeting point, drill is carried out in that place. With Royal Caribbean it is held by the life boats. Each passenger mausta ttend at their allocated one nad their name registered. On one cruise two did not bother to show, they were taken off the ship before it sailed for disobeying an order.
Where the allocated meeting points are used, in an emergency that is where passengers would gather. From that point if the ship was to be abandoned they would be escorted to the lie boats. But to get to that oint the ship would have to be in a dramatic condition.

Fire at sea is a problem, but I consider that with all the sprinklers it would never become a major event. All the systems have two feeds to them so if one fails there is a back up.


On one cruise a guy in a cabin just along from us woke up screaming one night. He had hung a jacket from a sprinkler and in the early hours of the morning the ship rolled enough for the hanger to break the glass.

Keith Tindell
21st October 2014, 07:56 AM
I have considerable experience in evacuation procedures in Hotels, factories, supermarkets etc, even Isle Of wight ferries, small beer in terms of 5000 passengers on a cruise ship, however, the one thing that is introduced in real life is panic, its very toxic, and can make people act in strange ways. So we wait and see. Prior to joining our wonderful EU, the UK had the safest hotels to stay , probably in the world, they were inspected annually by the fire service, fire drill records were inspected, and more importantly any alterations to the building had to be inspected and approved by the fire authority to insure fire escape routes were not compromised. All this procedure has now been changed, and hotels do not have to comply to the same degree. I would urge anyone using a hotel to enter your room, put your bags down and immediately check for your means of escape. I know that in most cases the insructions are on the entry door with a map, but with bells (hopefully) ringing and smoke, who stops to read instructions, just a point of view KT

Captain Kong
21st October 2014, 08:04 AM
That is what I always do KT, check out the means of escape, I always carry a Torch on the bedside so if there is a total Blackout I can see. and in the maize of alleyways on a cruise ship it is essential.
Cheers
Brian

Keith Tindell
22nd October 2014, 08:50 AM
A bit off thread, but some 35 years ago i attended a very serious hotel fire in the early hours of the morning, the first thing was the roll call, and found two persons missing, obviously a whole new ball game, as we now have to commit guys in breathing apparatus into the burning building to do an extensive search, not very funny when the roof is steadily collapsing etc, however after some considerable time we could not locate them. The guy in charge of the fire then asked the hotel manager what car they had, and sure enough, it turned out to be a guy having a naughty couple of nights with his secretary, and as soon as he saw the situation he had legged it!!!. The police turned up at his house as he only lived about 5 miles away, with the intention of reading the riot act to him, re putting men into danger etc. His wife thought that he was up North somewhere on business, and once they saw the situation, thought this guy is in deep s*** enough, and left the wife to sort things out, KT

Ivan Cloherty
22nd October 2014, 09:31 AM
That is what I always do KT, check out the means of escape, I always carry a Torch on the bedside so if there is a total Blackout I can see. and in the maize of alleyways on a cruise ship it is essential.
Cheers
Brian

Me too Brian, always check out the fire escape route, modern hotels can be a maze, torch is always alongside me, when joining anything that floats I check the LSA equipment locations and condition, suppose it's inbred in us

Louis the fly
22nd October 2014, 02:15 PM
always sit on the black box {they always get that back working}. jp
That would only work John if there was a black woman available on the plane.:yeahthat:

John Pruden
22nd October 2014, 06:38 PM
getting worried about you Louis are you overdosing on them blue pills?:p: jp

Ron Kendall
22nd October 2014, 09:14 PM
If flight panam 103 had exploded about 8 minutes sooner, it would have been around Sellafield nuclear site, and I would not have been typing this message!

happy daze john in oz
23rd October 2014, 04:57 AM
Do any of you remember fire drill at the 'Vindi'?
Crawling along a tunnel filled with smoke from burning wet straw. The idae was it would ready us for a fire at sea should it occur. I think most of us almost choked to deatggh on the smoke.

j.sabourn
16th November 2014, 08:43 AM
Flying, voyaging, train journeying or just going to the supermarket will always have elements of danger attached, especially now in the era of terrorism. We talk about ships and the abandonment of such, which as an earlier post I certainly agree with, as trying to get 3000 or so elderly passengers discharged is bad enough in a controlled environment which it is never going to be. We talk about crew training, all very well to say this man or that man did a fire course or has a boat ticket, under actual conditions of wanting to survive you are never going to get 100 per cent compliance from his past training. Human nature being what it is, some people are going to have more reserves of strength than others, fear of dying really brings out what a man is capable of, you see this example in the one person who should of had these reserves in the master of the Costa Concordia and the South Korean ferry. The 2 people on board these vessels who should have had the reserves so demanded in their situations. In an ideal situation and one reconized by the BOT examination board in 1963, I was put in a simulated position as master on a passenger vessel by the examiner. Rushing around and doing this and doing that, thought I had the answer well covered. I nearly failed the orals on this one question alone, his words not mine were, " you are the master of the ship and your place is on the Bridge and you delegate". I have always kept this in mind. However on a normal modern vessel I sometimes wonder that this is a bit outdated now, as there is nobody to delegate to, so an answer to this orals question God knows what answer would or should be given now. JS

happy daze john in oz
17th November 2014, 04:42 AM
I often wonder when at boat drill on acruise ship how would the crew cope in a real emergency? Personal survival is a powerful instinct which in many cases will come to the fore. There is no knowing how anyone will react until it happens. Though I think it would have to be something extremely catastrophic to occur to put a ship in mortal danger.

Alan Gale
17th November 2014, 04:51 PM
The trouble with any mass transportation vehicle is that they still rely on a human being for the final say in what happens. You can have all the tech in the world but if the man in charge is a pillock then nothing will stop a disaster. After leaving the MN I drove buses and coaches for about 25 years. Most of them were enjoyable but there is always the risk factor inspite of my intense training for the job, (Class 1 PSV and IAM certified)I saw plenty of drivers who did the wrong thing and had problems. I also worked on vintage aircraft as a hobby, again most pilots are responsible, but there is always the odd one that takes one risk too many, A couple of fatal crashes whilst I worked at Booker were witness to that. Then of course we have Accidents like the Concordia, MH370(which is looking more like deliberate action now,) the Korean Ferry etc. all of these have human error as their primary cause. The technology exists to make Aircraft, Ships, and motor vehicles completely automatic, but the travelling public do not trust it. They want to see a man at the front in charge of their fate.......and the problem with that has all to readily been seen. They say the most faulty part of any car is the nut behind the wheel! It works for Aircraft, Coaches and Ships as well!

happy daze john in oz
27th November 2014, 05:20 AM
The Sun Princess was returning to Sydney after a cruise on Monday. A few hours before docking an 80 year old passenger was missing, believed overboard. The ship put out a search which lasted for about 8 hours, he has not been found.
The ship docked late and did not sail again until the next day, passengers were put up in hotels overnight

To date there is no indication of what happened but the coast guard think his body will be washed up at some time. The problem is though that no one can say for certain how long he had been missing when the alarm went off.

Shaun Gander
27th November 2014, 07:59 PM
My 4 day fire course at Camelshead in Plymouth many years ago has stuck with me to this day. I am anally obsessive about fire prevention.

I was amazed when I started working here in the US that no basic training (STCW95) is required until you reach the 500 ton class CoC.

Another tip is count the number of seat[backs] in front or behind you to the exit on an aircraft - you can feel your way out in smoke or darkness.

Also I don't think any fire department anywhere in the world has ladder equipment that will reach above the 7th floor - worth thinking about when booking a room.

SDG

Captain Kong
27th November 2014, 10:01 PM
Also I don't think any fire department anywhere in the world has ladder equipment that will reach above the 7th floor - worth thinking about when booking a room.

SDG
.
. Hi Shaun,
my friend and neighbour, John Wallwork, ex Master with BP, had an office on the 5th floor of a new block in Saigon, now Ho Chi Mihn.
a fire started and the fire engines ladders could only go to the fourth floor, and he and all his staff died,
I watched the fire in a friends home on TV NEWS in Perth, I didn't know it was him inside until I got home a couple of weeks later.
Sad.
Cheers
Brian.

Shaun Gander
30th November 2014, 12:44 AM
An awful scenario Captain Kong :(

After your post I did some Google searching and it would appear that here in the US the longest ladder is around 100 ft and some departments are quoting up to the 8th floor but I guess it depends how close to the building side you can get and the ladder angle.

SDG

Captain Kong
30th November 2014, 02:27 PM
Last year we stayed in a hotel after my operation in Honolulu, we were on the 39th floor, over 400 feet above the street.
A fire notice in the room said ,,,, ,,In case of fire stuff a towel at the bottom of the door and wave a white sheet through the window. ,,,,,,,,,
I looked and saw only Unbreakable glass windows that do not open. I figured that there is no way a ladder would go 400 feet plus for the other rooms above. BUT Fortunately next to my door was a fire door fire tower and concrete steps going all the way down to the ground.
Cheers
Brian

Edward Reece
26th December 2014, 01:32 AM
It seem a lot of you have concern about cruise life boat drills I am ex British merchant navy did most of it with Blue Flu
I have done quite a bit of cruising, And have 3 booked for the next few years. I was on deck and have done a few life boat drills that has saved life's and always been proud to be part the British merchant fleet have to have my life boat certificate.
The Royal Caribbean Did do there drills at the life boats stations but when I went to the station that was poster on the back of the state room door I was told it had been change and to go to another life boat On expressing my concerns to the crew member allegedly in charge that was checking names all I got was a blank stair Done a few Cruise with Princess line Where I found my self and wife in the comfort of the lounges out of the elements and in the air condition It was bad enough being herded like sheep into their Muster stations as they call it and get electronically recorder in ( but keep this in mind they do the same recording at every port of call, as you get off and on the ship. At least once a trip we get a call for so an so to report to reception before we leave )I may be wrong has the computer made a mistake? Now Princess fly under the red duster but are regressed in a port of conveyance. I have all ways been proud to sail under that flag I last cruise I have just did, Was the first time I have sailed under the red duster and UK registered ship the P&O for over 40 Years But I was ashamed at what they called a life boat muster NO checking of of names No head count When had the British navy that I was so proud to be part of lower there standards. When I went to complain about it at the reception desk
All I was told the crew go round and check cabins On Princess You only have to attend life boat drill once (when you first get on )so you could do back to back trips and only attend 1 Muster in the years you spend on the ship Now going back to P&O the wife was talking to an other woman about how upset I was about the Muster and was told "I have never been to 1 in 4 years I just don't go"
I make it a point of going on the boat deck and seeing what they have to offer . I have never heard at the muster stations telling you to check out where you life boat is As when they take you it is the quickest way which most time is through the doors that read crew only and as have been mentions in other letters there are a lot of us that are past our use by date and hard to keep up I do have my concerns that some thing will happen.
I have all way told people to cruise British ships as the crew training and stranded are so high but that has changed after sailing with P&O It hurts me to say it but they are 3rd rate
regards Eddie

Peter F Chard
26th December 2014, 03:20 AM
#6 Reading through this post again there is a comment about diesel electric propulsion -- P&O used this method and turbo electric propulsion in the 1930's on their passenger ships. The great thing about this method is that the propeller shaft speed is constant, there is no racing even if the propeller comes out of the water. It makes for a very comfortable ride for the passengers. The Azipods pods are the same if electric powered, not too sure about the hydraulic shaft driven types. Cheers Peter in NZ.

happy daze john in oz
26th December 2014, 04:56 AM
Edward #31 we have cruised with Royal Caribbean and found their lifeboat drill to be the best. Muster at the life boat or else. On one cruiose two passengers were refused cruise and put off in Sydney before sailing as they had not attended muster.

With Princess we have always had to go the the alloted muster point which varies depending on which deck you are on. But in general find their muster to be satisfactory.

Only once with P&O, and never again, there all passengers had to muster in the theatre and very little information forthcoming.

John Pruden
26th December 2014, 06:13 AM
only a matter of time before a major disaster on a cruise liner hope not but cant help thinking that way... jp

Peter F Chard
26th December 2014, 07:13 AM
Whilst Inter Second Engineer on the " NORTHERN STAR '' we used to anchor shortly after leaving Southampton at the start of our Round the World Service and have a lifeboat drill. It was amazing how many passengers came to the drill with all their luggage thinking it was the real thing and had to get off the ship. Things got better as the trip progressed when they all realised that these were drills and not the real thing. We even launched some of the boats on the Davits down to deck level and remove the covers over the boats -- we even caught some stowaways at times !! Cheers Peter in NZ.

Captain Kong
26th December 2014, 06:39 PM
On the Queens of Cunard, Queen Mary 2, Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth, they have the first and last boat muster in the theatre, three decks below the boat deck.
Then a little shop girl will take the passengers one group at a time to a life boat, none are designated.
Cunard have British Masters and British Officers, so? where did they do their training?
I thought it was great that someone in the once mighty Cunard could think that 2000 passengers sat in a theatre ,
scenario, 1, filling with smoke. 2. filling with water and a list that is increasing. could be evacuated safely and without the fat blue rinse American matrons panicking.
I do not sail with Cunard anymore. I now sail with Holland America, next is my fourth voyage with them. they have a mix of British and Dutch Masters, Mates and Engineers. They are all also members of Numast, the same association as we belonged to, with the associated standards.
They have before sailing, a designated lifeboat for every passenger posted in the cabin. You must go to that boat, The Lifeboatman reads out everyone's name. If you do not turn up you and your luggage are taken ashore and you are left behind. On this years world cruise on the `Amsterdam`, from Fort Lauderdale, Fla. two passengers were told to get off the ship pronto and left behind. No refund.
Far more safety conscious than Cunard will ever be.
I will be sailing the Pacific from San Diego again in February on the `Statendam` and will feel confident that I am in safe hands, also only 960 passengers.
Would never ever sail above that figure.
Cheers
Brian.

happy daze john in oz
27th December 2014, 04:53 AM
rror at sea, Costa Concordia comes to mind. But there have been two P&O ships sailing out of Oz over the past few years that had a fire on board. Both engine room but not severe.
A spokesman at the time said modern fire fighting equipment on modern cruisae ships is now state of the art and it was this that kept the fires to a minimum.

j.sabourn
27th December 2014, 08:32 AM
Not even if it falls on a bouncy castle John.

robpage
27th December 2014, 01:05 PM
for many years people in the ferry industry predicted gloom too , they were proven right one night at Zeebrugge

Captain Kong
27th December 2014, 02:29 PM
That could easily happen again Rob,
All these mozzie "asylum" seekers, with a few suicide vests on, Hi jack a ferry mid channel, and a total disaster.

They should have a few Royal Marines or Gurkhas on board searching for them before sailing.
There is No Security.
They are still crossing to Dover everyday from Calais if froggy france..
Cheers
Brian

Keith Tindell
28th December 2014, 10:57 AM
I have often thought that Brian, am always aware when on the Isle of wight ferry, vans and lorries driving on every hour, no checks on contents etc. And having worked on them for a short while am aware of the crap emergency procedures, KT

Evan Lewis
28th December 2014, 10:51 PM
There has been much discussion on site as to the safety of ships at sea today, in particular cruise ships. Many now carry 3,000 plus passengers as well as crew so in an emergency there are a lot of people to move.
Many of the members consider the ships to be unsafe because of the numbers and the shape of the ships.

For most the depth below the water line is about 25 feet, but in this space is all the major weight of the ship, engines, fuel, water, stores, bilges etc. Consider a shuttlecock, all the weight is at the base with the centre hollow, very much the same with these ships.


As to major disasters at sea, the Titanic, Andrea Doria, Costa Concordia, though this was an act of stupidity that brought about the disaster. In peace time since WW2 the number of major disasters at sea involving passengers ships of any kind is very low. More aircraft dissasters have occured. The biggst risk of disasters at sea is the risk of fire, running aground is highly unlikely with modern equipment available. Engine failure can occur but as most of the modern ships have three generators so it would be something very difficult for all to go off line at the same time.

The order to abandon ship is something that would not would be taken lightly, many things must b etaken into consideration first. Proximity of land, other ships, availability of rescue should the ship be abandoned. With all the modern equipment on ships of today I doubt any ship would be in serious danger at any time.


There may be some members who will not agree with what I have stated, it is my opinion, but for those who have journeyed on a modern ship what I have stated may make sence.

But of course in the unlikely event that a ship had to be abandonded human servival preference will come to the fore. No mattre how skilled the crew, how well they are trained human survival instinct will over ride it. All the life boats and life rafts in the world will be of little value if mass hysteria takes over.
Awakening.this Morn,to the ongoing Tragedy of the Ferry,on fire .in the Med.
Coincidence ,or What?

j.sabourn
29th December 2014, 06:24 AM
Interesting post typ??? however think 3 teams of 8 would be the 3 crews of the average sized cargo ship of today. Regardless of whatever is said about safety if it exceeds certain monetary limits it will be discarded on some trumped up excuse. The sea has always had its victims, the highest deaths used to be in the mining industry now defunct, then came the fishing industry now defunct then came ordinary shipping, which now has the honour of leading as the biggest loss of life among different industries. Seamen always knew the risks of going to sea as were well versed in weather conditions and the dangers of fires on board. As you say it is a different ball game when you have passengers on board who will be mostly landlubbers in most cases and probably terrified. You sound as though you have been a fireman at one time or have done the fire courses about the various things you mention. However there is nothing more frightening than a fire that you know you cant control and I sincerely hope all the passengers survive or if not that the death toll is not too big. Regards JS PS Just looked up your name to see how to spell and see you don't live too far away at Forestfield, I live down at Singleton so may have passed you in the street not known it at various times Cheers JS

j.sabourn
29th December 2014, 07:34 AM
Ref. to previous Typ. Looking back through this post see you were on The Western Legend. I was on there as an extra hand to take her back to Singapore. The regular skipper there was a bloke from Blaydon another Geordie, just cant remember his name at moment, and one of the gun mechanics was an old shipmate of mine, who actually had a drink with yesterday as is home over Xmas from Indonesia, Ken Bakewell also from Rockingham. Was only there for the run up. Think I may have been home off the Nordic Explorer on leave. So probably knew people you know. Cheers JS

j.sabourn
29th December 2014, 08:18 AM
Tony that name you are using now, is it a pacific Island moniker or a Maori name. Have sailed with a few Tonies but cant think which one you are if you are using that as a pseudonym and is another Tony I am thinking about you will know Capt Kong another pseudonym who was out here last year and looking for you. If however the other Tony you would be the one who went up the Persian Gulf. Anyhow you would probably know the gun mechanic I mentioned, I sailed with him 45 years ago and have kept in touch over the years he is 67 and threatening to retire, however is a long time out of the Engine room and has been doing consultancy work for the past 10 years or so. Was it one of the supply boats we were on together. Can you remember the Geordie skipper on the Legend who probably relieved you. He was divorced and his advice to me was don't ever think about it as financially you have to restart all over again. Lived in a little apartment in Rockingham. On flying home from Singapore that trip met 2 young ladies on plane who knew him very well , managed to get disentangled before meeting the wife in Perth airport. Bit mixed up this post if you let me know which ship will probably clarify the situation. Wasn't a Drill ship was it? Cheers JS. PS It doesn't matter which Tony as don't think I owed either any money. Sounds like that old English advert which twin has the Toni. Cheers John S

Evan Lewis
29th December 2014, 09:19 AM
Hi! Gents
Pardon me intruding.
The mention of Blaydon,sent me straight to You Tube. A bonus. I ken the words properly now.Only joking!
Enjoy!

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► 3:48► 3:48 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PrMaVjHS74)


www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PrMaVjHS

j.sabourn
30th December 2014, 02:34 AM
#49... Evan cant open the www but assume you are referring to the National Anthem of Cappy country "The Blaydon Races", he sings it every night before hitting the bunk, he would have told you the words if didn't know. Cheers John S

Captain Kong
30th December 2014, 08:52 AM
What has happened to Cappy, not heard from him for a long time, He said he was going to gate crash John Artons Christmas Party, but never showed up, The Nuns were missing him and he missed a good do.
Cheers
Brian.

cappy
30th December 2014, 09:14 AM
What has happened to Cappy, not heard from him for a long time, He said he was going to gate crash John Artons Christmas Party, but never showed up, The Nuns were missing him and he missed a good do.
Cheers
Brian.surprise surprise......i went dressed as a monk ....have just got back ......now i know .......were the BLUE NUN....comes from those girls sure know how to party ........and the mother superior.........the word superior is not good enogh for her.......rob arrived on wednesday .....but was knackered by xmas night.....some party .......plenty of goose and goosing to use a scouse term .....going to remember that party regards to all and a happy new year ....ps i never go out new years eve am loking after grandkids .....cant stand people throwing up and acting the r sole thats by 9 o clock.....just a little drink at home suits cappy and missus...regards to all ....can never remember will our colonial cousins have new year before or after us........suppose JSwill have before and after any way......regards cappy

j.sabourn
30th December 2014, 09:52 AM
Cappy every day is new years day to me, don't have to have an excuse to spew up, just blame Gwens cooking if do. Tried once drinking in the wardrobe but she found my hiding place so don't care anymore. They tell me Marys wooden leg is hollow and that's where you hide your stash. Cheers don't fall off your grand daddys Chair tomorrow night. Everyone now knows you sing the Blaydon Races before going to bed. All the best John S

John Arton
30th December 2014, 10:21 AM
Re: posts ~52, 53
It is only now when the trauma experienced by the Arton clan gathering on Christmas day has died down sufficiently to allow me to recount the days happenings.
Having arrived at our supposed secret location in a posh area of South Tyneside and been led to our tables, the clan had spent a very enjoyable meal eating and drinking until we were al well stuffed with turkey, pork, beef and all the trimmings and were just awaiting the delivery of our Christmas pudding covered in brandy butter sauce when all hell broke loose. You guessed it, our secret location had been discovered!!!. This gang of rampaging nuns led by a bewiskered, sea boot wearing, parrot on shoulder guy along with his compatriot who was a one legged nun called Mary, stormed the place demanding food and drink. Sister Mary made lewed comments about her wooden leg and what she could do with it to the male members of the clan, too such an extent that a number of them are even now still attending the Bede Wing at Harton hospital.
I grabbed one of the nuns and closely questioned her about who had organised this invasion and she told me that the guy wearing sea boots was "cappy" and I was not to believe him if he said he was "cappys bruvver" as he was the genuine article.
The whole event descended into farce and mayhem with nuns dancing on tables and showing off their undergarments, the bloody parrot squawking "pieces of eight" and crapping all over the room.
On exiting the place we were met my some guy wearing a hat with corks dangling from it speaking strange language and wanting to know where the Christmas Barbie was, cobber.
We all beat a hasty retreat before the police arrived to break it all up AND I STILL NEVER GOT MY CHRISTMAS PUDDING!!!!!
The clan, hopefully, will have recovered sufficiently in time to gather and celebrate the new year where next years secret Christmas gathering will be planned. The consensus of opinion seems to be at present that it should be held in some foreign country, I favour a nice spot I know on Vancouver Island in B.C. where we could enjoy some log rolling contest or even some winter sports but others seem to favour a nice hot climate as experienced in parts of western Australia....watch this space. LOL
Hope you all had a good un and are looking forward to seeing in the new year in time honoured manner, that is with bottle in hand along with coal and bread for first footing.
rgds
JA

cappy
30th December 2014, 10:25 AM
it was me bruvvers bruvva

Keith Tindell
30th December 2014, 11:52 AM
I see that the death toll is rising on the ferry from Greece to Italy, and on TV the British guy rescued said that it was total panic. They still dont know how many are dead or missing. They have said that the skipper was the last to leave the ship, or believed to be the last. KT

Captain Kong
30th December 2014, 05:13 PM
Two ABs on the Albanian Tug were killed trying to get a line on the ferry,
A lot of safety failures on the last survey, with fire doors etc. Some lorry drivers were sleeping in their cabs may have also died and maybe some "asylum" seekers on board. One driver said they had cooking pots and stoves to cook on in the car decks.
Cheers
Brian.

John Pruden
30th December 2014, 07:31 PM
brian smoke detectors never went off no fire alarms sounded it seems to be an accident waiting to happen ?? sorry for the losses of life? questions must be asked on safety on board.. jp

John Pruden
30th December 2014, 09:33 PM
just a question if the captain knew that safety was an issue on his ship what say has he in the matter or was a report registered with the company ? I don't think a british ship would be allowed to sail as not knowing the politics that goes on who has the final say and where doe's the blame lay up to now 40 are believed dead so blame should land on someone's doorstep? jp

Captain Kong
30th December 2014, 09:40 PM
Hi John
I have seen situations where Ship Captains and Aircraft Captains have taken ships out or Fly planes when they should not have done.
Each one has said, " If I don't do it then the company will get someone else who will do it and I am out of a job." so some are prepared to risk lives to save their own jobs.
It Happens.

John Pruden
30th December 2014, 09:57 PM
brian I think our BOT would have stepped in though are we letting safety slip in the shipping world? jp

j.sabourn
30th December 2014, 11:02 PM
John... You are thinking in terms of shipping of the past. As Brian says if you wont take a ship out they will just get someone who will, and there are plenty around. Although the master is responsible for the ship, he is the fall guy on the crap hitting the fan. Specialized shipping nowadays and for a past number of years being master is subject to you being satisfactory to the charterers agent or other so called specialists on board. It is a fine line one walks. I was brought up in the old school where the decisions were made by the master and tried to go on those guidelines. I said on a previous post of how after 1 swing on a seismic boat I wasn't sent back there but somewhere else, the reason being I wouldn't go along with the camp boss on board and continue working during a possible cyclone arriving in the area, it cost a lot of money to stop and I steamed up towards Broome to get what I thought would be behind it, previous to this all the rigs in the area I had been working had demanned and sent ashore. As it turned out the cyclone veered off its expected course and did not hit the expected area, he crowed that the reason of all the down time was that I took the ship off area And he wanted to stay, so I was the bad guy for not listening to him. The next master did listen too him and lost a lot of seismic cable on a reef, he blamed the master who was sacked. I must also say in my limited experience of such vessels which carry shore so called experts, those coming from the North Sea areas were the worst, as had been brought up in the background of being masters of all they surveyed and could get rid of people ad lib. It was harder for them in Australia to do so, another reason why I am for the unions to a certain extent. I wish we could all go back to the times most of us knew years ago, it has all gone, a large percentage of todays shipping there are too many people who think they can run a ship. Cheers only hours now to 2015, don't think things are going to change though all the best John S

John Arton
31st December 2014, 01:16 AM
Despite what many may think, since the inception of the ISM Code, the Masters position has actually been strengthened . Despite the introduction of check lists, written procedures for anything from making ready for sea to dealing with a bomb on board, all SMS Manuals define in strict terms that the master has absolute authority to overrule any directive given by head office if in his opinion it affects the safety of the ship, its crew, cargo and the environment. It also lays out a traceable paper trail of responsibility right up to any head of management and the board of directors of any ship owning/management company. All of this came about after oil disasters where traceability of ship owners could not be proven as each ship in a fleet was a separate entity in its own right. Think of all those London Greeks who owned loads of ships under Liberian flag each one been owned by a one ship company registered in Monrovia.
Woe betide any superintendent or DPA who puts undue pressure on the Master to make him sail in an unsafe condition for whatever reason.
O.K. you say, the Master does not sail as he considers it unsafe and is replaced by one who does and then disaster happens
If that first master was sure of his grounds and had verifiable proof that his owners/managers had failed to heed his views or fixed any defects, then he has the weight of the law behind him and can end up getting those owners ISM certificate suspended which means they are unable to operate their ships.
The problem really lies with the inexperienced Masters these days not understanding the full breath of present day shipping legislation and are afraid of their own shadow, thinking that being a "yes" man will gain them kudos with the ship owners, which it certainly will not if something goes wrong with his ship and disaster occurs. Again ISM States that commercial pressure cannot be used to force the Master to sail his ship in an unsafe condition.
To sum it all up, any Master who takes his ship to sea in an unsafe condition is either ignorant of his ships condition and ignorant of his lawful duties as regards the ship its crew and cargo and the environment and if he does not understand that and stand up to be counted, then he should not be sailing as Master.
That's my view and over my years at sea it was drummed into me during the years of learning from my peers and as Master it stood me in good stead when on a number of occasions I had to tell owners/managers "No" I was not going to sail until items I thought could jeopardise the ship were fixed. From initial reports of the Greek ferry it would appear that the Master knew that some of his safety systems were not working, some safety procedures were being ignored and possibly he did not even know how many passengers he had on board. All of these "defects" lead back to one person, the Master, who should have had the balls to stand up and get the systems fixed, even if it meant delaying the ship.
Just my view
rgds
JA

j.sabourn
31st December 2014, 02:28 AM
John , I and many others are quite aware on paper of the authority that the master holds. By your posts will not understand the different situations. There is no such thing as black and white you are discussing ordinary cargo carrying vessels which are mostly routine and mundane jobs. Also discussing possible straight forward scenarios of whether to sail or not, which the average village idiot could make, it is a bit more a bit more complicated. Unless you have sailed on such vessels and know the who has the most pull for future business and a few other points, your job can be at the whim of some charterer, all he has to say to the owner we will take the ship for x number of days on the condition you replace the master. Where do bits of paper come into it.? We had a saying offshore "you are only as good as your last job" and this is true you can be the blue eye one minute and the next day gone, through someone just pointing the finger. An ideal world is regular shipping, unfortuanetley there isn't much left and all your students are going to have to face the harsh realities of going to sea in trades that didn't exist in the past. lets hope they have the right morals for a seagoing career of today. 13.5 hours to 2015 all the best, refuse any invitations to Cappys he will only use you as a baby sitter while he goes on the town. PS Peoples visions of a master pacing the Bridge would get a surprise if they were on a seismic vessel where 12 hours of the day one is probably sitting steering the ship on seismic courses and the mate doing the other 12 hours this is for weeks at a time, so there is half the day gone before any other duties you may need to do. Cheers JS

John Pruden
31st December 2014, 06:19 AM
thanks lads for your answers there dos not seem to be much thought of safety but to me like a pilot of an aircraft anything goes wrong you are in the front seat and it seems the fall guy.. jp

j.sabourn
31st December 2014, 06:38 AM
#66... John at the end of the day all the pieces of paper in the world are not going to save you. I had a contract with Seaforth Maritime of Aberdeen if any one is interested which was supposed to top up the MN pension one. This was a supposedly legal binding document and know when they went to the wall some received and others did not. I chased them for a long time with legal bodies with no success, I hope someone may read this and sue me for defamation of their working practices and would then get at least an answer from them as why they did not abide by the agreement. I then might get some satisfaction at least of a straight answer from one of the insurance companies that they kept switching to. The same as any legality whether it be in Shipping or any other industry is always open to corrupt manipulators. Why do you think the Gaols are full, mostly are corrupt swindlers, unfortuanetly or fortuanetly as the case may be they are only a very few of the ones caught and prosecuted, otherwise they would have to bring back the prison hulks for extra accommodation, which might in itself be a good thing. Cheers JS

Captain Kong
31st December 2014, 08:48 AM
A lot of those conditions changed after the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster at Zeebruge when they brought in the new Law of "Corporate Manslaughter" where the blame could also be pointed at the Owners in an incident.
Cheers
Brian.

John Pruden
31st December 2014, 09:00 AM
common sense would/could tell anyone the what if factor of being in charge of passengers lives even though there was concern about the safety of the ship in reports. jp