PDA

View Full Version : Look out Spain



Bill Cameron
9th August 2013, 08:20 AM
Four Royal Navy warships, including HMS Illustrious and HMS Westminster, the lead commando group from 3 Commando Brigade Royal Marines and elements of naval air squadrons will be supported by six vessels from the Royal Fleet Auxiliary.These are heading for Gibraltar

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defence/royal-navy-ships-will-visit-gibraltar-amid-tensions-with-spain-1-5369419

alf corbyn
9th August 2013, 08:49 AM
i'm surprized we don't hit them in the pocket. refuse to pay any thing in the EC that goes to spain.and veto holiday travel to there
.

Tony Wilding
9th August 2013, 09:27 AM
spain and argentina both get uppity. typical.

John Arton
9th August 2013, 09:39 AM
I always thought that the advent of the European Union meant that you could cross borders between member states without let or hindrance.
Excuse me for being thick but I do believe that both Spain and the U.K. (Gibralter being a crown state of the U.K.) are both in the E.U. So are the dago's going against E.U. law by trying to impose tariffs on border crossing between Gib and Spain?
Believe they are moaning about fishing rights or something which is a bit rich coming from a country that has brought up many of the U.K. fishing licences. Go round the South Coast and the number of Spanish fishing boats with the nominal one Brit on board is amazing and they regularly seem to get caught for illegal net sizes with very little of the fish landed appearing on the U.K. market, most of it into trucks and of to Espaniola.
rgds
JA

cappy
9th August 2013, 09:58 AM
no corned dog or Spanish fly then

john sutton
9th August 2013, 10:35 AM
gibralter is not a full member of the EU(I don't know the full details).You will be aware that only 200 cigarettes are allowed if bought in Gib and there is a major smuggling situation with cigarettes between Gib and Spain.
There are people living down here who go to Gib to grocery shop because they still want English labels when everything that we need can be obtained in Spanish supermarkets.
Don't be too hard on the Spanish they are usually very tolerant which you can see if you come to spain and see the number of English registered vehicles with no road tax and probably no valid insurance,as they obviously have no MOT.
john Sutton
british and proud of it
Spanish resident

Keith Tindell
9th August 2013, 01:16 PM
I recently came from Germany by coach, and did not encounter any border checks at all, the only time was when we went to catch the chunnel train, you have to go through custome checks, by British customs on French soil. I guess thats because of illegals entering UK, and if caught they are handed over to the French (who let them go), once they get through to British soil no one wants them back. So i guess the Spanish are only doing a similar thing, KT

Bill Cameron
9th August 2013, 01:36 PM
Don't be too hard on the Spanish they are usually very tolerant which you can see if you come to spain and see the number of English registered vehicles with no road tax and probably no valid insurance,as they obviously have no MOT.
john Sutton
british and proud of it
Spanish resident

Spain is broke....Gibraltar is not ...simples!!

See this article

BBC News - EU warns Spain over hospitals' rejection of EU health card (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22714147)

Ivan Cloherty
9th August 2013, 04:40 PM
I always thought that the advent of the European Union meant that you could cross borders between member states without let or hindrance.
Excuse me for being thick but I do believe that both Spain and the U.K. (Gibralter being a crown state of the U.K.) are both in the E.U. So are the dago's going against E.U. law by trying to impose tariffs on border crossing between Gib and Spain?

JA

John, Rob will come up with the correct name and details, but there is an agreement which Britain did not sign Zenebogen Agreement (or similar) where-in Countries in the EU allow free passage of their nationals without let or hinderance at all land based borders (including airports, but not sea ports). Britain did not become party to this agreement being an Island Nation and wanted full control of its own borders, it would seem that Spain is legally within its rights but outside the spirit of agreement as Gibraltar is not an island but an isthmus. But then again we are probably the only country within the EU that plays by the rules and it's about time we threw away the rule book.

Ian Walker
9th August 2013, 09:06 PM
I think its called the schengen agreement

Keith at Tregenna
9th August 2013, 09:25 PM
A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: ‘The Royal Navy’s annual Cougar deployment is long-planned and well-established.

‘Gibraltar is a strategic base for UK defence and as such Royal Navy ships visit its waters throughout the year as part of a range of regular and routine deployments.’

The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has announced the convoy, which includes HMS Westminster and the Royal Fleet Auxiliary ships, will visit the British Territory on its way to naval exercises in the Mediterranean.

An MOD spokesman stressed the arrival of the vessels in Gibraltar later this month was not a reaction to the ongoing diplomatic dispute.

?

K.

Ian Walker
9th August 2013, 10:51 PM
To think the Spanish did not know of this months ago is hard to believe, I think its for domestic consumption as the government are embroiled in a huge corruption scandal and theres nothing better to divert attention then a good old nationalist cause just like the Falklands.

leratty
11th August 2013, 08:54 AM
Ian you are correct it is the Schengen Agreement. Must say I have never been checked by immigration as we are used too elsewhere thoroughly, often they just wave me through including in London arriving by air. Most times not even looking at the passport other times just a cursory glance, but my wife has & it frustrates her to hell. I always say come through with me then we just tell them (truthfully) we are man & wife..she does sometimes not a problem others it is, go figure? CDG is an example there is always a Gendarme at end of finger off aircraft just a glance at passport if anything & then in immigration hall the same?
I do wonder how many staff they would need for all the trains & coaches that traverse the EU every day crossing boarders all over the place.

vic mcclymont
11th August 2013, 09:05 PM
Apparently the Spaniards and the Argentinians are going to join forces at the UN and try and force a resolution decrying the UK as colonial conquerors, and they want their land back.
It looks like the heat is going to be turned up on the Gibraltar and the Falklands very soon.
Watch this space as they say.

Keith at Tregenna
12th August 2013, 12:48 PM
Gibraltar has been a British territory for 300 years but Spain disputes UK sovereignty over the rocky outcrop on its southern tip. Recently deep social problems based on high and rising unemployment in Spain have dominated Spain’s news outlets – Gibraltar is being used as a distraction by Spain’s Prime Minister Rajoy to escape the grim economic and social realities his country is mired in. This is a similar tactic to Argentina’s Kirchner who rants and raves about the Falklands while her country crumbles around her.

Last time on Gib remember a WW2 plane, it had made an emergency landing during the war, but was to big to take off again. At the time it was still there: Also was advised to try the Maritime Steps, sounded a good Idea: They were actually treacherous. Old and in decay from top to bottom. Once started there was no going back, with the odd ape about also worrying.

Would advise any one visiting not to put yourself in peril and go down the same way as you went up.

K.

Keith at Tregenna
12th August 2013, 01:07 PM
Mediterranean Steps:

Just looked up out of interest and though then told Maritime steps , they are actually the Mediterranean Steps:

Mediterranean Steps:

Length: 1400m

Difficulty: Hard

Time: 1 ½ to 2 ½ hours

This walk is steep and at times arduous, and not for people without a head for heights. Time is an important factor when negotiating this path. Early mornings are usually preferable, but during the summer months a late afternoon walk will provide the visitor with plenty of much-needed shade. The area is particularly appealing during the spring, when the visitor is greeted by an interesting and very beautiful array of flowers.

It was pretty, but taking your life in your hands ?

LINK: Visit Gibraltar - Upper Rock - Mediterranean Steps (http://www.visitgibraltar.gi/upper-mediterranean-steps)

K.

Robert T. Bush
12th August 2013, 01:09 PM
Sailed with Gallegos and Basques. Both were good seamen. Love their seafood and their wine is not bad.

The north of Spain is greener and prettier than the south.

Captain Kong
12th August 2013, 04:35 PM
Never did like europe, full of bleddy foreigners. I would never ever go there.
.
Hit them in the wallet, ban All Spanish Holidays, thousands and thousands of hotel workers and the rest would all be unemployed, Millions of UK Pounds are poured into Spain every year. Spain would go back to being the Third World country it used to be. I guess we are too soft with these dagoes.
.
Spain has posession of two places in North Africa, Ceuta is one, cant remember the other name. They have just refused to give them back. so what is their problem.
Cheers
Brian.

john sutton
12th August 2013, 04:55 PM
brian
its mellila
what about us poor penionistas?
john sutton

Captain Kong
12th August 2013, 05:01 PM
Thanks for that John.
.
Look on the bright side, when the Spanish economy falls in a heap and it reverts back to the Third World, then the price of a drink will be so much cheaper. in the early 50s you could get drunk for a tanner. Some guys have all the Luck.
Salud Hombre.
Cheers
Brian.

Keith Tindell
12th August 2013, 05:02 PM
Well, if nothing else shows how united we are in Europe, yet another stone in UKIP`s sling KT

Keith at Tregenna
12th August 2013, 05:35 PM
As said visiting anyway on route for Cougar 13. Convenient though ?

K.

Keith at Tregenna
12th August 2013, 06:03 PM
Gibraltar row: Royal Navy deployed amid tensions:

THOUSANDS of Royal Navy personnel have set sail for a training deployment in the Mediterranean amid diplomatic tensions between the UK and Spain over Gibraltar.

The helicopter carrier HMS Illustrious left Portsmouth Naval Base, Hampshire, and will join the navy flagship HMS Bulwark, which has sailed from Devonport for the Cougar ‘13 operation.

Also sailing tomorrow will be HMS Westminster, a type 23 frigate, which will visit Gibraltar en route.

Other UK ships taking part are another type 23 frigate, HMS Montrose, and six Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) ships.

The vessels will be taking part in what defence officials stressed was a long-scheduled deployment in the Mediterranean and the Gulf.

LINK: Gibraltar row: Royal Navy deployed amid tensions - UK - The Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/gibraltar-row-royal-navy-deployed-amid-tensions-1-3041708)

K.

Ian Walker
12th August 2013, 07:09 PM
Keith, re post 15 as I have said in a previous post Mariano Rajoy and his party are embroiled in a major corruption scandal, they have been in recession for 5 years and there has not been a problem for Gib until the scandal erupted.

john sutton
12th August 2013, 07:16 PM
Camerons not stupid.
He,s called the force "Cougar".This will get the old birds in Marbella excited at the thought of all those young Matlows wandering round the Rock
john sutton

Keith at Tregenna
12th August 2013, 08:12 PM
Definitely nothing provoked by the Gibraltarians. Forget all this palaver about a few concrete blocks that have been dumped in the sea.

“That isn’t why the Spanish are going back to the Franco-style blockade. This isn’t a row about fish. I am afraid that this is a blatant diversionary tactic by Madrid, and though it would be ludicrous to compare the Rajoy government with the tyranny of General Galtieri and his invasion of the Falklands, the gambit is more or less the same.”

Cougar ‘13 is a long-planned deployment involving the four Royal Navy warships, the lead commando group from 3 Commando Brigade Royal Marines and elements of naval air squadrons.

This is the third time the exercise has taken place with its aim to demonstrate the ability to operate a highly effective maritime force anywhere in the world to protect UK interests.

K.

robpage
13th August 2013, 03:49 PM
Gibraltar has a special relationship with the European Community, which is different from any other colony of a member state. Under the Treaty of Rome 1973 and the UK Act of Accession of the same year, Gibraltar was classified as a dependent territory of the United Kingdom. Although Gibraltar has its own Parliament which is responsible for passing legislation, including European Community Directives, the UK Government is responsible for Gibraltar's foreign affairs, including their relationships within the European Union.I Believe that charging tourists , Note , NOT Spanish workers who work in Gibraltar 50 Euros each to cross .

But Let us Remember Peter Hain , Here is a piece from last Fridays DAily Telegraph where Hain comments about a 2002 proposal from him and Tony

The proposal was dropped before it was even published because of opposition from hardliners in the then Spanish government, who wanted only full sovereignty. In a separate referendum organised that year by Gibraltar’s government - which feared Mr Blair was secretly planning to give the territory away - 98 per cent of people voted against sharing sovereignty with Spain.On Tuesday, though, Mr Hain told The Telegraph that had the detail of plan actually been seen by Gibraltarians, many might have been in favour.
“It would have given them everything they wanted, retaining British citizenship and everything about their way of life, down to having a pint of beer in the pub,” he said.“The Spanish would have co-sovereignty, but the Gibraltarians would have got more devolution of power. There really were no negatives at all.”Mr Hain’s comments came as Gibraltar threatened Madrid with legal action over its practice of creating long delays at the Spanish border for those coming and going from the territory. Thousands have been stuck in queues in hot summer weather for up to seven hours at a time, ostensibly so that the Spanish authorities can conduct anti-smuggling checks.Related Articles

Jose Garcia, Gibraltar’s deputy first minister, described the practice as “totally inhumane” and a potential violation of European Union citizens rights.“We are collecting individual complaints in case we need to take action on the basis that an individual’s rights have been infringed,” he told The Guardian.

The European Commission, meanwhile, said it would send a “technical mission” to the border in coming months to examine whether Spanish officials were acting unreasonably. Commission officials are also studying the legality of the Spanish government’s threat last Sunday to impose a 50 euro border crossing fee.Frederic Vincent, a spokesman for the commission, said that while Spain was entitled to impose controls on the border as Gibraltar was not part of the Schengen Agreement, such measures had to be “proportionate”.
The latest spat arose out of Spanish objections to Gibraltar starting work on a reef to protect marine life, which Madrid claims will deprive Spanish fishermen of their livelihoods.The Prime Minister, David Cameron, has said he is “seriously concerned” about the Spanish government’s actions, which some claim are to detract from domestic political problems.There is little indication that Mr Hain’s plan would be any more acceptable to the current Spanish government, which is ruled by the same right-wing People’s Party that rejected the 2002 deal. But the former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland said that as with the peace process in Ulster, there had to be “give and take” on both sides.He also claimed that the Gibraltarian business community had been very “receptive” to the plan, which would allow an open border and resolve ongoing disputes over air space access, phone access, and “all the things which are bedeviling them at the moment”.But his suggestion got little support on the Rock on Tuesday.“I don’t believe it could resolve any of the issues on either side,” said Robert Vazquez, 61, a Gibraltarian barrister and political blogger. “The joint sovereignty plan confuses the ability to have a practical solution for what is in reality an emotional and a nationalistic issue.“Nor would it satisfy Spain which is looking for nothing less than revindiction of sovereignty. It is also very difficult to imagine a situation in which Britain would offload one of its territories, considering how many lives were lost in defending the Falklands.”Mr Hain’s claim that Gibraltar’s business community was keen on the idea was also queried by Edward Macquisten, chief executive of the Gibraltar Chamber of Commerce.“It is safe to say there is not much appetite for revisiting the plan,” Mr Macquisten said.“We have all the airline access we need already, and we already have a very successful economy based on financial services, the port and tourism.”

Remember they are trying to forge an Alliance with teh Argentinians to take us to the United Nations too .

BUT Tony Blair tried to Give it Away ..

This is a non political statement as I believe all politicians are Ass Holes , it is just Tont was a bigger one than most ( Tony NOT Blair the other one , feel free to remove my comment on Mr Blair if you think it unfit )

john sutton
13th August 2013, 04:15 PM
Consider the scenario that Gibralter needs more money from the UK government and that the concrete blocks were a way of starting a situation demanding more UK support.
The concrete blocks achieved nothing environmental apart from destroying trawls and the waters they were dropped into were not absolutely Gib waters, or sheltered.They are part of the atlantic which extends through the straits to El Faro about 40 kilometres east of gib.
I think its a well known fact that if you want to cause trouble with Spain or France you upset their fishermen or farmers and they can be so powerful that their governments will rush to support them(I wish the Uk would do the same).
The people of Gib live off the financial support of the UK.Why do they need 10000 Spanish citizens to cross daily to work.Because most Gibralteans wont work.
We should think carefully.The people of Spain don't want Gib.The people of spain don't want trouble with the UK.Its all down to politicians.Gibralteans,spanish and now UK.
The major economy of Southern Spain is tourism of which Brits account for a very high percentage.
I have yet to see a poster saying Brits out of gib
john sutton

robpage
13th August 2013, 04:29 PM
The Gibraltar Artificial Reef, or simply the Gibraltar Reef is the ongoing artificial reef project for the Mediterranean waters surrounding the British overseas territory of Gibraltar. The initiative was started in 1973 by Dr. Eric Shaw of the Helping Hand Trust.
It consists of a collection of sunken wrecks designed to give marine wildlife an environment to breed and colonise. Initial experiments with tyres proved unsuccessful as the tyres were simply swept away by currents or buried underneath sand. In 1974, boats from local marinas and the Gibraltar Port Authority were donated. The first two were barges that were sunk in Camp Bay. In 2006, a 65 ton wooden boat, "True Joy" (also referred to as "Noah's Ark") was sunk here as well, followed by the MV New Flame, a mid sized bulk carrier, in 2007.

In 2013, after it proved extremely popular with local, Spanish and tourist divers, it was expanded further by the dropping of concrete blocks onto the seabed. This proved unpopular with Spanish fishermen who, even though it's in Gibraltar's waters, demanded the process be stopped because it would prevent then trawling the seabed for fish

It is a Tourist attraction for Divers , and why should Spanish fishermen run trawls in Gibraltarian waters , these are the guys that have destroyed and decimated fisheries around our coasts for years . Maybe we should Charge the Spanish Workers 50 Euro a day to cross , should make a nice contribution to the economy of the Rock .

Gibraltar was Ceded to us , John Please give me one reason why we should hand it back , maybe we should petition Barrack Obama for the return of the land the damn yankee Colonists robbed off us

Captain Kong
13th August 2013, 04:42 PM
Peter Hain is Not the most intelligent of Politicians, come to think of it does anyone know an intelligent politician?
Did nt he get arrested and convicted of vandalism when he came over from South Africa whining and cutting up the Cricket field at Lords or some where, as some kind of protester.?
I think the best place for Hain is back in South Africa where he belongs.
Brian.

Keith at Tregenna
13th August 2013, 04:56 PM
Mediterranean Steps:

LINK: Visit Gibraltar - Upper Rock - Mediterranean Steps (http://www.visitgibraltar.gi/upper-mediterranean-steps)

K.


Saw enough last time, certainly not going back: Just saved 50 odd Euro's.

K.

john sutton
13th August 2013, 05:04 PM
not saying we should hand it back just that the gibraltareans are not neccessary guiltless in this situation

Ron Kendall
13th August 2013, 08:24 PM
I often holiday at a timeshare near Fuengirola, Spain, and usually go to Gibraltar by coach for the day, and the duty frees! For years , the Spanish have used delaying tactics at the border. The traffic for Gib, on the dual carriageway divrts up a pir, and back down the other side, the coaches having to manouver at the top end, before coming back down to the main road, all this can take upwards of an hour. When you get to the border, a Spanish policeman gives a quick glance at held up passports, before letting the coach proceed, the Gib policeman then gets on, and has an even swifter glance at held up passports, then it is across the airport runway to the coach park. on any day, about 20 double deck coaches, and around 20 or 30 single deck coaches visit Gib. Leaving Gib, everyone has to get off the bus, and walk through the large building, carrying what they haqve bought, nothing can be left on the bus, any one trying to take out more than 1 bottle and 200 ciggies could be heavily fined, anything hidden on the bus, and the bus could be held back for hours.Quite a difference leaving any other EU port, you can take out 3000 fags, and numerous bottles of spirits!. It is too late to change my next holiday(to Minorca), but next year it may have to be anywhere but Spain. PS sorry about the spelling errors, Iv'e just noticed them,well4 of them!

robpage
13th August 2013, 08:59 PM
Just top clarify my feelings we roll over for too many things and play dead , Blair would have given away several hundred years heritage , British Heritage , before we consider giving that rock back remember that The famous attack upon Gibraltar, which led to its surrender to the British, on 24 July 1704 was carried out by a brigade of British and Dutch Marines, 1800 strong, under the command of Prince George of Hese-Darmstadt. In the following October, Gibraltar was besieged by the French and Spanish. The Marines from the British Fleet, held the fortress against repeated attacks until the siege was raised on 9 March 1705. In one incident in this fighting, Captain Fisher of the Marines with 17 of his men, successfully defended the Round Tower against the continued assaults of 500 French Grenadiers. A contemporary report of this noted defence says,"Encouraged by the Prince of Hesse, the garrison did more than could humanly be expected, and the English Marines gained an immortal glory." . The Rock was won with British Blood , to give it back is an insult , to consider it a kick in the teeth . The Royal Marines wear one Battle honour , GIBRALTAR

Ian Malcolm
13th August 2013, 09:31 PM
Gibraltar (note the spelling) is a promontory, not an isthmus.

When politicians are faced with a serious internal problem, they look for an external dispute to divert the attention of their citizens. Spain's problem is its high rate of unemployment and Gibraltar suits their case admirably.

Regards

Ian

Ivan Cloherty
13th August 2013, 10:22 PM
Gibraltar (note the spelling) is a promontory, not an isthmus.

When politicians are faced with a serious internal problem, they look for an external dispute to divert the attention of their citizens. Spain's problem is its high rate of unemployment and Gibraltar suits their case admirably.

Regards

Ian

Ian, normally we do not correct other peoples spelling mistakes on this site, otherwise we may be in full time employment, we are generous in our attitudes towards each other, as we put them down to old age and/or 'typos'. Nor do we correct others grammar, or the use of nouns, adjectives, pronouns etc; we are aware that some use there instead of their, were instead of where and to instead of too and vice versa. We are not here to get marks out of ten, but just to exchange memories and repartee and if these include grammatical errors and spelling mistakes so be it. Some left school at 13 years old, others later and some were blessed with incompetent teachers as well as good ones.

Just my pennyworth!!

j.sabourn
13th August 2013, 10:48 PM
Would of liked to have been a listener to his meetings with Gadaffi before the insurrection of the country. Seemed that Gadaffi was murdered in undue haste before any interrogations or enquiries were made into his previous conduct. I would surmise that a lot of politicians heaved a sigh of relief at the time. Cheers John Sabourn

Ian Malcolm
13th August 2013, 11:51 PM
Please accept my apology, Ivan. I heartily agree with all you say and have always supported this wise policy, but considered that the repeated misspelling of a place-name was somewhat different.

Regards

Ian

Captain Kong
14th August 2013, 07:47 AM
I called there twice, Dunedin Star 1956 and Adelaide Star 1957 with beef from Dalgetties on the Brisbane River,
A few happenings there, see Seafaring Yarns in Swinging the Lamp.
Also I had to go there in 1985 when She wanted to see it.
Disapointed then. The Cha Cha Bar was now a Indian clothes shop., The Royal Oak was still open but no Sailors in there battling. nice and quiet, just tourists. so not the same.
Cheers
Brian

Keith at Tregenna
17th August 2013, 05:28 PM
What hypocrisy! With Gibraltar besieged, ROBERT HARDMAN visits Spain's own Rock - the colonial outpost in Africa that, with ocean-going double standards, they refuse to surrender:

Read more: What hypocrisy! With Gibraltar besieged, ROBERT HARDMAN visits Spain's own Rock - the colonial outpost in Africa that, with ocean-going double standards, they refuse to surrender | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2395882/What-hypocrisy-With-Gibraltar-besieged-ROBERT-HARDMAN-visits-Spains-Rock--colonial-outpost-Africa-ocean-going-double-standards-refuse-surrender.html#ixzz2cFT4GQvj)

Bill Cameron
18th August 2013, 10:34 AM
I like Robert Hardmans closing statement in his article

" You only need to spend a few days, as I have this week, on both sides of the strait to realise Spain isn’t just in breach of both the letter and spirit of European law with its current harassment of Gibraltar. It’s also guilty of the most brazen double standards. In short, Spain wants to have its paella, eat it, get someone else to pay for it and thump anyone who argues."

ray-c
22nd August 2013, 10:49 AM
With all this talk of Gibraltar it was interesting to see a double episode of New Tricks that we had previously recorded. The whole story line was based in Gib. Great to see the place again and it even showed the old road we used to have to climb to get to the summit of the rock. Seeing all the ships passing through and Ceuta in the distance, the barbary apes and even Europa lighthouse all made me feel very nostalgic.

Hi Tony, sounds like you walked the walk I used too, Live in the Europa Pass, Went to school at Europa Point, Dad walked us around the Rock once a month, learned how to swim in the harbour, Had great fun, on Navy day, on all sorts of RN boats, climb the rock path to the summit, at least once a month, when not walking round it, the apes got to knows us, and walked along side, then waited till we come back, all ways had some thing for them. New all the tunnels, dad being army, could more or less go any where, brother John was born there. Also watch new New Tricks, brought it all back.