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Jim Brady
22nd November 2012, 07:47 PM
Heres a little one for debate.SHOULD PRISONERS BE ALLOWED THE VOTE.I cannot understand the governments stance on this as far as I am concerned the government should just say "as from tomorrow all guests of Her Majesty will be allowed to vote,end of!!How many of them would vote?how many of them have the intelligence to vote?how many of them would be bothered to vote?how many of them are interested in voting?We cant even get the populace on the outside to vote so what is the big deal in allowing those that are bannged up to vote.This argument will bounce backwards and forwards to Brussels cost millions of pounds and the worst part is we will have thousands of claims going in from those inside.What is the problem in saying all those inside have a right to vote that would be the end of it.Their Human Rights would not've been infringed and the claims of compensation would be nullified.As it happens this has now got to go to all kinds of committees costing countless millions but all we need to do is say yes you can have the vote and the problem will go away.If there is a chance of compensation for infringing someones Human Rights and Brussells say that we must comply with this then the floodgates will be open for many claimants.
Regards.
Jim.B.

Captain Kong
22nd November 2012, 08:24 PM
The Human Rights Lawyers are all on Stand By.
.
First and foremost the problem is we have no Democracy in the UK.
We Vote for a Govenment to Run this country the way we want it run.
For the people, by the people.
.
Then Johnny Foreigner wants to over rule the Government that we elected to rule.
.
I dont care if Prisoners get the vote or not, BUT I do not want some bunch of foreigners telling us if we dont then it will cost the tax payers of this once great nation Billions of Pounds.
.
Those europeans who want to over ride everything our Government decides have all forgotten that it was us, the Commonwealth and USA that gave them freedom in WW2 and WW1. Now they are acting as the Great Dictator and supressing our freedoms.
Give them the Vote, then give them Conjugals, then give them home leave every week. or better still let them loose into the street then the Cons with have total freedom, Then europe will think of something else to take from us along with the money they take off us.
I HATE eUROPE AND ALL IT STANDS FOR.
I just want Democracy.
Cheers
Brian

alf corbyn
23rd November 2012, 05:02 PM
hi brian. as the tories don't want a referendum on getting out of europe and like you i detest all the money we give them, and the way they constantly keep bringing in more asinine rules and regs. why don't we have our own referendum on this site, then send the results to No 10

Tony Morcom
23rd November 2012, 05:08 PM
There was an interesting debate on this very subject last night on Question Time. What was said made a lot of sense to me anyhow. There was also a lively debate on Europe as well with the inevitable conclusion that Britain will not be leaving the EU anytime soon. Love it or hate it there are some very compelling reasons to stay { and that wasn't said to ruffle any feathers before the flack starts :rolleyes:}.

Captain Kong
23rd November 2012, 05:38 PM
These convicts who want their Human Rights, so they can vote,
Did they consider the Human Rights of their Victims?
Not one Politician has mentioned that.
.
Yesterday I saw the devestation of my next door neighbours house. The house was completely wrecked from top to bottom and more than 2,000 of gear stolen, and a couple of thousand pounds of Damage. the 12 year old girl arrived home from school first and straight into the arms of two men who were robbing the place. She was histerical, I got there in less than a minute of hearing screams they both legged it across the field and through the woods with back packs and bags.
The Police questioned two men but they denied it and so they said they cannot do anything.
If they had been convicted then they would have been shouting for their Human Rights to vote.
Cheers
Brian.

John Pruden
23rd November 2012, 05:41 PM
hi brian. as the tories don't want a referendum on getting out of europe and like you i detest all the money we give them, and the way they constantly keep bringing in more asinine rules and regs. why don't we have our own referendum on this site, then send the results to No 10alf put me down as no1 to get out.

Captain Kong
23rd November 2012, 05:44 PM
>From The Queen's Royal Lancers Website:

Goodbye to my England, So long my old friend
Your days are numbered, being brought to an end
To be Scottish, Irish or Welsh that's fine
But don't say you're English, that's way out of line.

The French and the Germans may call themselves such
So may Norwegians, the Swedes and the Dutch
You can say you are Russian or maybe a Dane
But don't say you're English ever again.

At Broadcasting House the word is taboo
In Brussels it's scrapped, in Parliament too
Even schools are affected, staff do as they're told
They must not teach children about England of old.

Writers like Shakespeare, Milton and Shaw
The pupils don't learn about them anymore
How about Agincourt, Hastings , Arnhem or Mons ?
When England lost hosts of her very brave sons.

We are not Europeans, how can we be?
Europe is miles away over the sea
We're the English from England, let's all be proud
Stand up and be counted - Shout it out loud !

Let's tell our Government and Brussels too
We're proud of our heritage and the Red, White and Blue
Fly the flag of Saint George or the Union Jack
Let the world know - WE WANT OUR ENGLAND BACK !!!!

Anon,

think about it.
Brian.

John Albert Evans
23rd November 2012, 06:15 PM
alf put me down as no1 to get out.

John,
What an interesting suggestion.:clapping2:
I for one would vote for us to leave the EU.
Lets see what the rest of the lads feel like about it in a sort of rough straw poll.

John Albert Evans.

Jim Brady
23rd November 2012, 07:59 PM
I dont know what constituancy that they would be allowed to cast their votes,would it be their home ward?Given that the amount of people in gaol is some 80.000 what affect would this have on the outcome of a General Election.Thousands of criminals may be in line for compensation after MP's were yesterday given the go ahead to ignore a European court ruling handing prisoners the vote.I have to laugh at Chris Graylings statement"Parliament has the final say on our laws not the European Court of Human Rights" if only that was true!!!As i said,prisoners are not interested in having a vote but if there is any money going for denying them this then it will be get in the queue.The government are now looking at blocking prisoners from getting legal aid to fight their case.I cannot understand why they just dont say you can have the vote and I'm sure the problem would go away saving millions of pounds.
Regards.
Jim.B.

Rodney Mills
23rd November 2012, 08:03 PM
Captain, my like button is on the "fritz". Small nit-picking comment to The Queens Own Lancers...G.B. Shaw was Irish, he was born in Dublin in 1856. I Enjoyed the poem though.

Cheers, Rodney

Jim Brady
23rd November 2012, 08:08 PM
Sorry Rodney you have left me completely confused same as the curly brackets,please explain!!!
Regards.
Jim.B.

Colin Hawken
23rd November 2012, 08:22 PM
Regarding a referendum on Europe or any other subject. A referendum does not bind Parliament in this Country. Back in the days of Mrs.Thatcher's Government,there was a lot of talk about a referendum on restoring the Death Penalty.The Lady quite rightly pointed out that the Nation would very likely vote overwhelmingly to bring it back. Parliament would discuss it and on a free vote they would reject it by a huge majority.I imagine she would likely have voted to restore it but the majority of the wimps would have opposed it.:(

Rodney Mills
23rd November 2012, 08:58 PM
Jim,

(1) I was unable to post a "like" to Captain Kong for his post re. the poem about England By the Queen's Own Lancers.

(2) "Fritz" is colloquial for broke, not working.

(3) "Nit-picking" again is colloquial for picking at something small.

(4) I still retain a fondness for England having been born there, and get very peeved at England perpetually being portrayed as a villainous country and the English as villains.

(5) The flavor of the poem being pro English appealed to me,

(6) The author erred by slipping a famous Irish writer into a complementary article about England and the English.

(7) Sorry you didn't get the "curly bracket thread" the Captain certainly got it, perhaps he can explain my sence of humor.

P.S. In the States convicted felons lose their voting privileges. Voting here is considered a privilege and not a right.

Cheers, Rodney

Captain Kong
23rd November 2012, 09:24 PM
Writers like Shakespeare, Milton and Shaw
The pupils don't learn about them anymore
.
Hi Rodney,
I would suspect that he used the name `SHAW` to rhyme with the word `anymore`.
But again, how many school Children know anything of Shaw or any other great writer today.?
Tho` when my son did English Literatuire at School many years ago he had books on GB Shaw. Maybe the `English` was meant to be `English language` as opposed to English Nationality.
Please excuse the `and `. I never did learn English at school I had to teach myself after leaving. Didnt learn to read and write until I was Eleven years old due to WW2.
Cheers
Brian.

John Pruden
23rd November 2012, 10:37 PM
COLLIN that's all it was talk we want action we have been promised by every party so why has it not happened is it a snout in the trough thing the right people and laws could get this country up and running again within 2 years we are looking out for to many and we are going down the pan for the sake of stupid red tape by foreigners remember the keep Britain tidy add on the telly well its time to clean up the country and clear it out.jp

Roger Dyer
24th November 2012, 06:14 AM
Few would argue with the logic of your proposition, Jim, it would, indeed, be the ideal solution, even though it would, I think, go against the grain for some. Many would regard it as further evidence of Britain's subservience to Brussels, those faceless fuhrers who, already, have done much to dismantle the British 'way of life'. Did we really need their advice on how Britain should be run? In post #4, Tony (Morcom) made the point that membership of the EU does have some benefits for Britain and that may well be the case, however, it is my belief that any benefit is, overwhelmingly, outweighed by the increasing disadvantage that Britain is made to suffer for the dubious pleasure of financial (Euro aside) and political alignment with most of Europe.

Foolishly, I always believed that the British were a free people, free to conduct their domestic affairs in a manner that preserved a culture, tradition and 'way of life' that was the envy of many throughout the world. Then along came the EU, an organisation (forgive the misnomer) that Britain eventually decided to 'jump into bed with'. At the time, there were those who voiced their misgivings, but it must be said, many believed that it was the way forward, that such an association might bring eternal peace and prosperity to Europe and, in time, the rest of the world. Now, in hindsight, it is easy to mock such optimism, but for many they were the hopes and ideals of a people for whom the experience and horror of WWII had not yet been forgotten. The original concept of a united Europe may well have been lauded as noble and far-seeing, but what of it now? Somehow, I do not see in it any part of the 'bright, sunlit, uplands' that Churchill may have once envisaged and referred to in one of his many notable speeches during the war. Ironically, there is a possibility that unless Britain withdraws from the EU, it will ultimately be in thrall to a German-led Europe, an existence that so many Britons fought and died to prevent from happening. The magnitude of their sacrifice should not be demeaned or wasted by the incompetence, indifference or, dare I say it, self-interest of a select few within the 'corridors of power' in Britain. Believing they know what is best, some members of the Government continue to treat the British public with the same disregard some adults reserve for small children. Undemocratically, by denying Britons a referendum on the question of continued membership of the EU, they deprive the people of an opportunity to decide for themselves what is best for the future of Britain, not just in this lifetime, but for generations to come. (Remember! that numbered amongst this coterie of 'wise' men and women who would deny their countrymen the right to decide their own destiny, are the very same exponents of statesmanship and political astuteness who dither over a simple, common sense, long overdue, decision to afford recognition to a diminishing group of elderly Arctic heroes who fought so that these overprivileged, overblown, gong-beaters can strut their stuff so ineffectively. Doesn't really instil a feeling of trust, does it ?). There are those in power, both in Britain and Europe, who will say it's too late, there is no turning back. Perhaps they are the same ones who fear a withdrawal by Britain would rock the foundations and bring the whole edifice tumbling down, so destroying what for some has become a 'milch cow' (or golden goose, if you prefer). Why not let the voice of the people be heard ? I do not sanction anarchy, only democracy. Let us hope that sanity and wisdom will overcome the shortsighted self-interest attributed to some and to others who jockey for position at the European trough that is Brussels.

(That's all for now said Roger, stepping down off his soap-box)

P.S. Understandably, some would feel that as an Englishman permanently resident abroad, I have relinquished the right to comment on affairs in Britain today. In my defence I can only repeat the old chestnut - 'You can take the boy out of the country, but you can't take the country out of the boy':)

j.sabourn
24th November 2012, 06:34 AM
Well said Roger. John Sabourn

Captain Kong
24th November 2012, 09:45 AM
I could not have said it better myself Roger.
Adolf Hitler tried to make a United eUROPE under German control, they are now trying again.
We do not need eUROPE, we managed without them for a thousand years and we were great, now we are reduced to a small province of eUROPE, They dont give a damn about us, only our Tax Payers money they give away to the eastern eUROPEAN Bums.
Cheers
Brian.

John Pruden
24th November 2012, 10:45 AM
if control is taken away from the voters and we have no say in any matters isn't that classed as Communism? today 3 kids were taken out of foster care becuase the family voted ukip who are thees been counters???jp

Captain Kong
24th November 2012, 10:52 AM
if control is taken away from the voters and we have no say in any matters isn't that classed as Communism? today 3 kids were taken out of foster care becuase the family voted ukip who are thees been counters???jp .
.
John Isnt that "Democracy" eUROPEAN style.??.
sounds like a page out of the Hitler Youth Manual,
Inform the authorities of your family and neighbours actions and movements.
Thought Control.
Cheers
Brian.


.

John Pruden
24th November 2012, 10:56 AM
Brian Adolf only had to wait a few years the Germans seem to have all the say in Europe they are pulling the purse strings soon the money will not be worth the paper its printed on.jp

Captain Kong
24th November 2012, 11:01 AM
Another stupid idea of Cameron and Osborne, they want `Gay`[ dont like that word,] Marriage.
I am scared that one day they will make it compulsary.
.
Now if they Force the Church to have `GAY` Marriage, will they also Force the Mosque to have `GAY` Marriage.?????, I doubt it.
.
Now some of you dont call me `Homophobic` [another word I hate, ] I have a family member, a neice who is a Lesbian and `married` in a civil ceremony to another woman and also they have adopted a boy. I Do Not Approve.
Cheers
Brian.

alf corbyn
24th November 2012, 11:19 AM
well lads i have read some really interesting posts,and liked them very much. if tony reads this , is it possible to set up a simple yes/no vote for a referendum?

roger that was an excellent post.

George Bernard Shaw was an irishman who loved england. he had his own seat in a pub in hertforshire(i think) i have sat in that seat and the area is called shaws corner.

Keith Tindell
24th November 2012, 11:20 AM
It was always said beware the yellow peril, i think we need to watch the teutonic one much more closely. I hope for all our sakes that David Cameron will show real bottle, and rattle the European cage , KT

John Pruden
24th November 2012, 12:15 PM
Kieth Cameron is a pussy he robs the British to pay the EU to push papers around spending billions to tell you a banana is bent or strait if the EU was a fella you drank with you would tell him to .... off and leave you alone that's what we should do put it to the people who give thees clowns the jobs and let them know they work for us? are we that stupid to put up with this.JP

EIFION
25th November 2012, 01:50 AM
I dont really have any hard and fast opinions as to whether those in jail have the right to vote or not, guess there are lots of pros and cons to it . What I do object to is people mixing up the EU with the court of human rights. This court was one of Churchills objectives that older members faught a long hard war to achieve.

My other objection is that the flag we served under was that of the British Merchant Navy not the English Merchant Navy. There is no Nation State called England, or Wales or Scotland for that matter, only that of the UK. The Uk like most civilised nations does follow rules and laws emposed on it from outside. From the UN, the Geneva convention. international maritime organisations to name but a few

Roger Dyer
25th November 2012, 10:57 AM
As you so rightly remind us, Eifon, there is no nation state called England (although, I confess, one does exist in my head and in my heart). You are also correct in reminding us of Britain's adherence to the impositions placed upon her by virtue of her membership of the U.N., the Geneva Convention and various other international organisations. By making that point, I hope you were not suggesting that Britain's membership of the EU was no different to any other international body, if so, then I must disagree. Unlike the EU, no other international organisation seeks to impose restrictions and effect a partial control that many British citizens find alien to their everyday life - therein lies the 'rub', I'm afraid.

..................Roger.

Captain Kong
25th November 2012, 11:45 AM
The Court of Human Rights was set up after WW2 to prevent another Holocaust or other such happenings.
Not to over ride our Democratically elected Government who are the law makers of this once great country.
We cannot deport Terrorists, because of Strasbourgs Human Rights Laws.
We have to accept an Algerian Terrorist and Criminal who is being deported from Spain for Crimes because he once married an British woman 25 years ago just to get a passport. He has never been to Britain for 25 years. But the foreign Judges in Strasbourg say we have to take him in. NOT make Spain keep him or deport him back to Algieria.
We cannot deport Abu Quatada back to his homeland of Jordan, he is a Jordanian citizen, because some faceless foreigners in Strasbourg say it is against his Human Rights.
What about the Human Rights of the British Citizen who elects a government and that government is then over ruled by a Foreign Court.?
Churchill certainly did not agree to that.
ALSO to get back to the thread.
Prisoners did not respect the Human Rights of their victims, so they cannot expect to have the same human rights they abused.
Cheers
Brian.

Jim Brady
25th November 2012, 12:57 PM
My take on this is if they were allowed the vote they wont use it,I wonder how many of them voted before they were locked up.To deny them the vote they will want it only for the reason of being able to claim compensation for infringing their Human Rights.I dont want rapists and paedophiles coming out of prison richer than when they went in through a large compensation payout for being denied something that they could'nt care less about anyway.Just how much do the people of the UK (on the outside) value the right to vote,judging by the turnout at the elections I would say not very much,I know many people that have never been near a polling station in their lives.
Regards.
Jim.B.

happy daze john in oz
26th November 2012, 05:30 AM
Brian, first point most of countries in EU are of a socialist nature so democracy as we know it may well not exist.
The concept of a free trade zone is good, locking countries into a single entity is not. So many countries around the world are trying for freedom. Some parts of Spain want to cut away from the main body of the country.
If what I heard is true Cameron told Eu that he was not prepared to put any more money into EU as he felt the British people had suffered enough budget cuts.

As I see it there is nothing stopping England establishing stronger trade relations with countries outside of EU and it may be of great benifit to them if they did so.
As for prisoners having the vote!!!!! If I am correct the only reason persons are sent to gaol is because they have broken some community laws and regulations. Do the crime, do the time. One of the aspecst of prison is the removal of privaleges and voting is one such entity.

robpage
26th November 2012, 06:53 AM
convicted prisoners are automatically banned from voting in Armenia, Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Luxembourg Romania, Russia and the United Kingdom. In Australia, prisoners are only entitled to vote if they are serving a sentence of less than three years. Eighteen European states, including Spain, the Netherlands and the Republic of Ireland, place no formal prohibition on prisoners voting. In practice, however, it is often difficult for prisoners in some of these countries to vote: in the Republic of Ireland, prisoners have the right to be registered to vote in their home constituency, but have no right to either a postal vote or to be released to cast a vote at a ballot box.. This whole debate was caused by a convicted murderer John Hurst , when you look deeply into it , this like many things is not about Human Rights , it is about getting Compensation for being denied Human Rights . I have one thought , when you go to vote , remembering that most of us have only ha this privilege for the last century , let the voter show proof of citizenship , not just electoral registration , that will reduce the voter numbers and maybe the members of parliament , , UK Citizens , not Aliens , no Irish who work here and still have roots in Ireland , no immigrants who have not served their time here to be a citizen , let them show citizenship to get the right to vote for our government , I'll show my passport any day to maintain my right to pick the pig who eats at the trough in my name . We need to stop the compensation culture , too many people with too many Ambulance chasing lawyers are too ready to sue anyone for anything when the smell of money is there , When I stub my toe on a pavement my knee is my worry , not the lawyer and the need to sue the council , I will repeat the cause of this yet again , a Convicted murderer , is trying to get compensation for his loss of human rights whilst in jail , I wish that , IF he ever succeeds that his victims family get every penny for the life that he terminated and denied the right to live to .

Tony Geeves
26th November 2012, 09:28 AM
With referance to #26, Eifion before I went to sea I was called up for Natoinal Service. We had to fill in a form to state whether we were a. British (Scottish), b. (British Welsh) c. (British Northern Irish) or d. (British English). I remain, and always will, loyally the latter, no matter what the E.U. tells me who I am! Regards T.G.

John Pruden
26th November 2012, 09:49 AM
once you are taken into prison all rights you have on the outside should stop we have prison visitor organisations to stop abuse in prisons. more rights should be for victims they are the loosers{but like everything else} we will put it to europe we can't sort our own lives out.

Captain Kong
26th November 2012, 10:40 AM
If the Politicians and Lawyers cared more for Victims Human Rights then we may have a better society.
Victims have no choice, they do not choose to be Victims.
a criminal has a choice. They do not have to be criminals,
So give them Nothing,
If eUROPE Says give them compo, give them Nothing.
What is Strasbourg going to do?? Bomb us??
tell them to get stuffed.
Brian.

Calvin Kent
26th November 2012, 11:18 AM
I would let them have the vote, as has been said before few would use it. As for any that might choose to go down the compensation path would it not be simple for a law to be passed disallowing any person to profit from their incarceration however caused, including lottery wins, by the simple expedient of any monies having to be paid into a compensation pot for victims of crime. I would go further and charge any that could afford it for their board and lodging.

Regards
Calvin

Captain Kong
26th November 2012, 11:37 AM
I agree with that Calvin, If any prisoner gets any compensation he has to pay back the costs of his arrest, trial, legal aid and imprisonment including, food, electricity, heating, and laundry. also the use of any fascilities, such as the Gym , I have to pay here, he should have to pay the same. Cost of playing Pool , you have to pay in the pub. and the Library and TV licenece fee for each cell.
That should discourage them. Why should the Tax Payer have to pay twice to keep the bums in comfort?
Failing that start to execute a few murderers that should keep the numbers down.
Cheers
Brian.

robpage
26th November 2012, 12:37 PM
The problems that I get are with the words "beyond Reasonable Doubt " in a trial , and the fact that not all our policemen as Captain Kong has testified here , are truthful and honest , but in a reasonable country , I think we have to assume that a man found guilty by twelve of his peers is more likely to be guilty than innocent . In that case , I would only allow an appeal to be against the verdict if there was new evidence , and I would take the stance taht as they chose to remove someone else's rights , either human or properety , they should forfeit their rights , and in the case of a crime that reflects a sentence of over three years I would remove their right to vote for ever . Let honest citizens vote and the rest get nothing . There is one exception that I see , and that is where a remand prisoner is denied his right to vote , as he has not been tried and found guilty , I would allow him a postal vote .

Michael Lawrence
26th November 2012, 03:54 PM
I still do not want some toerag who has been incacerated for raping, abusing,thieving, murder or any other offence against the many law abiding members of this nation, having the vote. Human rights! What human rights surely they should forfeit rights except the right to make restitution to the law abiding members of this nation. T/V's would be out, radios out any form of entertainment they have would be out. Food would be basic but nourishing and exercise would consist of a montiored walk round and exercise yard, preferably in leg irons. if they want work give 'em work on a chain gang. ( God knows where 'coz we 'ave very little industry left in this country, it's slowly been shipped out since the end of the 70's)
No, prison should be hard with no fringes and be made to be an experience you wont want to repeat. I might upset a few of the do gooders but no do gooder looks after my W.R. and I.;):rolleyes::p