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Tony Wilding
27th May 2012, 09:26 PM
ITV VIDEO TODAY, a new cruise ship hits bridge in China, loses chimney in the process, there words not mine, said Captain did not allow for having no passengers or cargo on board, cargo ? ? how much difference would passengers make to her draft ?

Tony Morcom
27th May 2012, 10:34 PM
Interesting point Tony. As a quick calculation 6000 passengers at an average of 15 stone would weigh around 570 tonnes plus their luggage you are certainly looking at an excess of 1000 tonnes. I am sure one of our retired Captains would be able to give some kind of indication of how much it might affect the draft. That in combination with maybe a miscalculation of tide height could well cause the problem. These vessels always seem to be built to the maximum with little thought to good old human error. I always remember the story of the QE2 and her first transit of Panama Canal. It is said that she damaged all the lamp posts in the locks as no one had allowed for their overhang of the lock sides. I wonder if anyone on here can actually confirm that story.
9623

Tony Wilding
27th May 2012, 10:45 PM
looking at the photo, she is not far off her designed draft, think even fully laden she would still have hit the bridge, cant see any davits or lifeboats, ? looks as if built for Yangtse cruises

Ivan Cloherty
27th May 2012, 11:04 PM
ITV VIDEO TODAY, a new cruise ship hits bridge in China, loses chimney in the process, there words not mine, said Captain did not allow for having no passengers or cargo on board, cargo ? ? how much difference would passengers make to her draft ?

Well Tony guess she would have a TPI of about 140/150 tonnes so even with 1000 tonne payload passengers/luggage and another 1000 tonnes for bunkers guess your looking at maximum increase in draft of 14 inches, funnel looks taller than 14 inches to me. Just a case of "Real" human error guess someone is going to end up in the equivalent of a Gulag

Rodney Mills
27th May 2012, 11:44 PM
Tony,

Average weight 15 stone? That's 210lbs or 95kl each? My wife and I, with our luggage in our hands wouldn,t weigh that much...And too think Captain Brian calls yanks fat.

Cheers, Rodney

happy daze john in oz
28th May 2012, 06:14 AM
I can see the problem here, they built the bridge too low.

Keith Tindell
28th May 2012, 06:45 AM
Call that thing a ship!!!!!!!!! KT

j.sabourn
28th May 2012, 09:45 AM
What is it with all these casualities re. cruise ships. Maybe they should all have L plates up. There seems to be more shipping casulaties now than there ever was, or maybe it is because they are now being reported on by the Media. Does anyone have any data on such. There must be less ships floating around now than there was 50 years ago. Maybe more tonnage but less in number. Piracy was going on all the time I was at sea, but only seemed to get reported on when passenger vessels became involved. It is only a matter of time to my way of thought before there is a maritime eco disaster re the Great Barrier Reef. Cheers John Sabourn.

Tony Wilding
28th May 2012, 10:05 AM
someone miscalculated, ! ITN Female Newsreader stated the Ship lost its chimney ! just shows the level of education you need to become a newsreader.

Capt Bill Davies
28th May 2012, 10:14 AM
John,

Whilst I would maintain my stance on never commenting on a specific incidents I would offer the following.

When people of our generation went to see it was quite simply a vocation. We wanted to be seafarers and we all went through the system and learnt our trade.
Take a look at what is in our colleges these days. We would not recognise them as people we consider seamen.
Our Colleges, with the connivance of the MCA, will do anything to get 'bums on seats' and resort to all sorts of marketing ploys to wheel the cadets in.

Cadets are being induced by all sorts of 'bling' such as positions on cruise ship after all who can blame them , they are a product of what we have made them.
Unfortunately, being offered a job on a coastal tanker on completion of their time (if they gat a job al all) does not quite cut it. And they leave.
Why someone did not keep a conventional cargo ship (BF for Ivan!) on the Mersey and train our youngsters might of helped. A british training ship. Japanese still have sail and conventional.

Bill

Ivan Cloherty
28th May 2012, 10:36 AM
John,

Why someone did not keep a conventional cargo ship (BF for Ivan!) on the Mersey and train our youngsters might of helped. A british training ship. Japanese still have sail and conventional.

Bill

EH BILL I hope "BF" stands for Blue Flue and not something else ! :)

j.sabourn
28th May 2012, 10:36 AM
Bill, before I retired and home on leave one time, I volunteered to go as crew on the Leeuwin a sailing vessel registered here in Fremantle. We had 50 or so youngsters on board and were only out for the day. The only 3 paid crew were the skipper the engineer and the cook. The skipper was a retired deep sea master and knew I was at sea, so told me to take her out doing the steering, and whilst out in the roads to show the youngsters how to steer. These 2 particular kids 1 boy and 1 girl hung around me all the time. The boy was an arrogant little S.O.B. and if he had been my son would have received a good hiding. However after a couple of hours outside and doing some of the steering with the sails up his total demeanour changed. The girl and him were fighting to do the steering coming back into port and had to chase them both off the wheel. They must have been under 15 as werent allowed to go aloft. However on reberthing the boy came up to me and apologised for his previous behaviour and said he only wished his father had been there to see him. He said it had been the best day of his life, he obviously came from a priviliged background. It made the whole exercise worthwhile. Such training for youngsters does bring out some of the better things in some youngsters. Cheers John Sabourn.

Gulliver
28th May 2012, 11:13 AM
ITV VIDEO TODAY, a new cruise ship hits bridge in China, loses chimney in the process, there words not mine, said Captain did not allow for having no passengers or cargo on board, cargo ? ? how much difference would passengers make to her draft ?

Chimney...probably yet another of those ridiculous Blue Funnel 'anomalies' we keep hearing about in these threads.
9624

Capt Bill Davies
28th May 2012, 12:08 PM
Chimney...probably yet another of those ridiculous Blue Funnel 'anomalies' we keep hearing about in these threads.
9624

Only ridiculous to people who never sailed in BF and not even at sea when the company was indeed Blue Funnel. It would also help if they could interpret the anomalies

Capt Bill Davies
28th May 2012, 12:09 PM
EH BILL I hope "BF" stands for Blue Flue and not something else ! :)

It does indeed Ivan.

Brgds

Bill

Gulliver
28th May 2012, 12:30 PM
Only ridiculous to people who never sailed in BF and not even at sea when the company was indeed Blue Funnel. It would also help if they could interpret the anomalies



Oh For God's Sake-remove that pompous head from up that backside of yours.....

Tony Wilding
28th May 2012, 04:41 PM
i can appreciate and understand company traditions, IE American Naval terms, right full rudder, flank speed , ect, but but Blue Funnel signals for turning to Port or Stbd mystify me. i thought they were international by law, ? rooms and columns, no problem, americans say smokestack, RN gives speed in revolutions, americans say back i/3 rd, but to change signal blasts to opposite the norm is downright dangerous. surely giving one blast gives wrong signal to a ship approaching?

Capt Bill Davies
28th May 2012, 06:05 PM
Tony,

I recall responding to this one very recently elsewhere on the site. The philosophy is based on priority and what do we do when ships are on the stbd side? I wont belabour the rest. Two bells to stbd gives more emphasis/alert than the one. Similar arguments for why is the Masters cabin on the stbd side.

Brgds

Bill

Jim Brady
28th May 2012, 06:36 PM
Bill,should that not be masters ROOM.
Regards.
Jim.B.

Capt Bill Davies
28th May 2012, 07:26 PM
Well done Jim.

Thats what happens when you go drinking with ex BF shoregang men
We might make a Blue Funnel man out of you yet.

Bill

Ivan Cloherty
28th May 2012, 10:28 PM
i can appreciate and understand company traditions, IE American Naval terms, right full rudder, flank speed , ect, but but Blue Funnel signals for turning to Port or Stbd mystify me. i thought they were international by law, ? rooms and columns, no problem, americans say smokestack, RN gives speed in revolutions, americans say back i/3 rd, but to change signal blasts to opposite the norm is downright dangerous. surely giving one blast gives wrong signal to a ship approaching?

It is and was dangerous that's why BLUE Flue ships were built with three rows of rivets where other ships had two rows, BF had four rows of rivets where others had three etc etc and also Blue Flue carried their own insurance because no other company would insure them because they had their own rules of the road and contrary signals, the other insurers knew that collisions were inevitable, as did BF that is why their ships were built stronger.

You will no doubt be given another reason, but the above is nearer the truth

P.S. keep a weather eye open for low flying Exocet Missiles :rolleyes:

Red Lead Ted
28th May 2012, 11:15 PM
That looks more like the clinic most of us would visit in Paradise st after a run down the West Coast..................:rolleyes: Terry. :wasntme:

j.sabourn
29th May 2012, 06:05 AM
Jim the early ships I was on the Master had the whole of one bridge deck. Some masters insisted you use the outside ladders on going onto the navigation bridge. Cheers John Sabourn.

Capt Bill Davies
29th May 2012, 11:15 PM
i can appreciate and understand company traditions, IE American Naval terms, right full rudder, flank speed , ect, but but Blue Funnel signals for turning to Port or Stbd mystify me. i thought they were international by law, ? rooms and columns, no problem, americans say smokestack, RN gives speed in revolutions, americans say back i/3 rd, but to change signal blasts to opposite the norm is downright dangerous. surely giving one blast gives wrong signal to a ship approaching?



It is and was dangerous that's why BLUE Flue ships were built with three rows of rivets where other ships had two rows, BF had four rows of rivets where others had three etc etc and also Blue Flue carried their own insurance because no other company would insure them because they had their own rules of the road and contrary signals, the other insurers knew that collisions were inevitable, as did BF that is why their ships were built stronger.

You will no doubt be given another reason, but the above is nearer the truth

Tony,

You really should read the posts more clearly as this BF anomaly is detailed in several previous posts relates to the look out man on the foc'sle head reporting his sightings to the officer on the Bridge. Nothing to do with what I have underlined in the quote. Your misunderstanding has thrown poor Ivan into a tizz with talk of triple rows of rivets, self insurance and god knows what else all of which is so far from the truth it cannot be taken seriously.

Ivan,
You missed your vocation. Thats the best I've heard in a long time.

Brgds

Bill

Tony Wilding
29th May 2012, 11:35 PM
Good evening Bill, please accept my apologies, i assumed, wrongly, it referred to all signals, not just from the lookouts bell signals, thanks for clarifying my mistaken line of thought, feel a right plonker now, ! regards, Tony W.:tr_oops:

Ivan Cloherty
30th May 2012, 08:11 AM
It is and was dangerous that's why BLUE Flue ships were built with three rows of rivets where other ships had two rows, BF had four rows of rivets where others had three etc etc and also Blue Flue carried their own insurance because no other company would insure them because they had their own rules of the road and contrary signals, the other insurers knew that collisions were inevitable, as did BF that is why their ships were built stronger.

You will no doubt be given another reason, but the above is nearer the truth

Tony,

You really should read the posts more clearly as this BF anomaly is detailed in several previous posts relates to the look out man on the foc'sle head reporting his sightings to the officer on the Bridge. Nothing to do with what I have underlined in the quote. Your misunderstanding has thrown poor Ivan into a tizz with talk of triple rows of rivets, self insurance and god knows what else all of which is so far from the truth it cannot be taken seriously.

Ivan,
You missed your vocation. Thats the best I've heard in a long time.

Brgds

Bill

Ah Bill, you are so serious you cannot see when the Blue Flue is being taken out of you, it was written to invite your exocet and it worked :p

Captain Kong
30th May 2012, 08:24 AM
Saiing Vessel
Bill, before I retired and home on leave one time, I volunteered to go as crew on the Leeuwin a sailing vessel registered here in Fremantle. We had 50 or so youngsters on board and were only out for the day. The only 3 paid crew were the skipper the engineer and the cook. The skipper was a retired deep sea master and knew I was at sea, so told me to take her out doing the steering, and whilst out in the roads to show the youngsters how to steer. These 2 particular kids 1 boy and 1 girl hung around me all the time. The boy was an arrogant little S.O.B. and if he had been my son would have received a good hiding. However after a couple of hours outside and doing some of the steering with the sails up his total demeanour changed. The girl and him were fighting to do the steering coming back into port and had to chase them both off the wheel. They must have been under 15 as werent allowed to go aloft. However on reberthing the boy came up to me and apologised for his previous behaviour and said he only wished his father had been there to see him. He said it had been the best day of his life, he obviously came from a priviliged background. It made the whole exercise worthwhile. Such training for youngsters does bring out some of the better things in some youngsters. Cheers John Sabourn.[/I].
.
.

. Hi John,
I sailed on the LEEUWIN in 2007 on a trip out of Fremantle. My Avatar is me at 72 leaping aloft the foremast.
There was a Scotsman Shantyman there at the time.
An excellent day trip.
I had a look at her a few weeks ago when I was in Freo, it was a Sunday and no one was on board.
Cheers
Brian.
96519652[I] Up the foremast and hoisting the mainsail. on the LEEUWIN.

Capt Bill Davies
30th May 2012, 10:49 AM
John/Brian,

You two must be far fitter than me. Last year I had a bad accident falling off a MF tractor which left me very much an observer these days.
All the power to your arm if you can still do it. I would not be able to do anything like that.

Brgds

Bill

John Arton
30th May 2012, 11:08 AM
The captain of that cruise ship that hit the bridge should have gone full speed approaching it, then squat just may have given him enough clearance.
There was a film on telly recently about a very large brand new cruise ship that had to pass under the bridge linking Denmark and Sweden and they had calculated that they had inches clearance so to give them a bigger margin of safety they went full tilt at it and the ship squat gave them an extra foot if I recall correctly.
Regarding Blue Flue and there whistle signals am I correct in thinking that on USA Rivers once above a certain point, whistle signals are reversed. Shure I read that somewhere as it caused a nasty collision back in the 60/70's, or is my memory getting worse?
rgds
Capt. John Arton (ret'd)

Capt Bill Davies
30th May 2012, 11:44 AM
The captain of that cruise ship that hit the bridge should have gone full speed approaching it, then squat just may have given him enough clearance.
There was a film on telly recently about a very large brand new cruise ship that had to pass under the bridge linking Denmark and Sweden and they had calculated that they had inches clearance so to give them a bigger margin of safety they went full tilt at it and the ship squat gave them an extra foot if I recall correctly.
Regarding Blue Flue and there whistle signals am I correct in thinking that on USA Rivers once above a certain point, whistle signals are reversed. Shure I read that somewhere as it caused a nasty collision back in the 60/70's, or is my memory getting worse?
rgds
Capt. John Arton (ret'd)

John,

I cannot comment on any whistle signals peculiar to BF and or what happens in certain US rivers.
The BF anomaly I have mentioned relates to the ' Lookout man on the foc'sle' ringing the bell'

Brgds

Bill

Capt Bill Davies
30th May 2012, 11:47 AM
Good evening Bill, please accept my apologies, i assumed, wrongly, it referred to all signals, not just from the lookouts bell signals, thanks for clarifying my mistaken line of thought, feel a right plonker now, ! regards, Tony W.:tr_oops:

Tony,

Absolutely no need to apologise and you should not feel anything. There are things I pick up on this site which is new to me. I sometimes think 50 years unbroken left me with funnelled vision and maybe I could have benefitted from a break. Life is one big learning curve.

Brgds

Bill

Captain Kong
30th May 2012, 11:58 AM
John/Brian,

You two must be far fitter than me. Last year I had a bad accident falling off a MF tractor which left me very much an observer these days.
All the power to your arm if you can still do it. I would not be able to do anything like that.
Brgds
Bill..
.
.

.Hi Bill,
On my recent trip around the planet, I had a few drinks with one of our members who lives in California and we met in the old Queen Mary `s` Observation Bar. After he went home, another two friends from Arizona turned up to see me and after a `few` more whiskys I turned in and fell off the bed and injured my knee, I am now on the waiting list for a knee operation.
So I will not be "leaping aloft" this year . SHE is still not very happy about it. I was lead astray that day.
Cheers
Brian.

Capt Bill Davies
30th May 2012, 04:22 PM
Brian,

Listening to BBC R4 this afternoon and almost came off the road laughing (almost another accident).

One programme was about the abrupt dismissal of two editors of a couple of tabloids. The nautical expression 'Like a ship without a Pilot' was used. I thought 'sounds like a good ship' but more seriously why are nautical expressions finding so much use recently. Is it because they are so generic/easily adaptable.

The other programme which almost caused the accident and should be in the Liverpool Dockers thread was this.

Two journalists were discussing the old comics, The Beano, the The Eagle etc and one asked ' How would they greet Dan Dare in Liverpool....................Ello dare!

Brgds

Bill

Jim Brady
30th May 2012, 04:31 PM
Bill, the Liverpool docker would've said "Dan Dare while I it yer".
Regards.
Jim.B

robpage
31st May 2012, 07:13 AM
Jim the early ships I was on the Master had the whole of one bridge deck. Some masters insisted you use the outside ladders on going onto the navigation bridge. Cheers John Sabourn.

Most of the Clan Line Ships before the late 1950s had a MAster's Cabin under the bridge on its own deck , and officers of the watch had to use the outside ladders in all weathers , I was working on the steam drains to the whistle at sea with a third Engineer onec , who spoke to the Master's budgie , sat in it's cage outside his dayroom window . The Old MAn was furious , how dare you speak to my budgie , and why are you on my deck ? . The steam drain leak was fixed , but the budgie escaped one nght and was last spotted looking for a blackbird in Dar E Saalam . well that is what most of it's shipmates did

Tony Wilding
31st May 2012, 07:33 AM
Amazing how some Captains acted so aloof, almost godlike, expect some were the same even to fellow officers,

j.sabourn
31st May 2012, 11:09 AM
I always presumed that the ships I was on it was normal procedure throughout the Industry. Going into port it was the 3/mates job to fill out a small list of info. for the pilot such as draft, GRT, and various other info. which would be helpful to anyone not used to the vessel. Included on this list was the air draft. That is distance from waterline to highest point on ship. As I should imagine it would be the custom of most ports to have at least a couple of feet clearance if not more, it is highly probable that this is one more item not done nowadays. Or if it is the mathematical capabilities of some leave a lot to be desired. Regards John Sabourn

Capt Bill Davies
31st May 2012, 11:43 AM
I always presumed that the ships I was on it was normal procedure throughout the Industry. Going into port it was the 3/mates job to fill out a small list of info. for the pilot such as draft, GRT, and various other info. which would be helpful to anyone not used to the vessel. Included on this list was the air draft. That is distance from waterline to highest point on ship. As I should imagine it would be the custom of most ports to have at least a couple of feet clearance if not more, it is highly probable that this is one more item not done nowadays. Or if it is the mathematical capabilities of some leave a lot to be desired. Regards John Sabourn

John,

Since the implementation of the ISM Code 1997 (nothing more than a Safety Management System...say what you do and do what you say....for those members unfamiliar with the term) the 'tick box' paper work is enormous and one can be assured that the paperwork will be in order. However, what we have at sea these days are not of the calibre of the majority of the membership here who may well have started in the 50s and 60s. It all boils down to training with a large sprinkling of 'common sense' which I am sure you will agree is no so common at all. I have taken the liberty of emboldening part of your text above as I believe that the mathematical ability of those entering the profession in the last 20 years is nothing short of disgraceful. The removal of the Mathematics paper from the entrance exam (whatever STCW calls it) opened the flood gates to all sort or intellectually challenged people.
I am assured by members in the NI that colleges in the UK are running 'crammer' courses to assist in 'Interpolation'. To remove the mystique of this very very basic process to our members it is as follows
The tide range over say 6 hours is 6 mtrs. Therefore in one hour it changes by 6/6 ....1 mtr. Simple? ...No Differentiation, Integration or Complex/Imaginery numbers here.
There are people out there who cannot do this and find their way on to the bridges of ships via STCW certification and they are of the home grown vintage. Not third world who are usually competent in this area.

Brgds

Bill

Gulliver
31st May 2012, 12:06 PM
Amazing how some Captains acted so aloof, almost godlike, expect some were the same even to fellow officers,



They did indeed, Tony-but for a junior officer it was a matter of survival and one’s personal inner wellbeing to know how to deal with such Masters attitudes,foibles and habits.



Whilst I have always respected their attainment in qualifying for and reaching command,I did not necessarily respect their attitude and character towards others. One had to ‘square-up’ to some of them to avoid being trampled on if something was wrong or not being dealt with correctly or fairly.
Fortunately I didn’t sail with many Masters who fell into that category'perhaps only 3 in my twenty years .The remaining several dozen Masters I sailed with I had a high regard for.
I can never tolerate or excuse bullying,harassment or impoliteness by anybody hiding behind their rank, age or length of sea time.

That even extends to those long-retired personnel ashore,and even on these nautical websites ,who attempt to employ the same attitude to others by using or hiding behind their rank. It's unnecessary,ignorant and offensive.

Regards and respects to All.

Gulliver

Jim Brady
31st May 2012, 07:19 PM
Gulliver,Davey I like that posting,most captains I sailed with acted with a less authoritive air about them than the 3rd mate or 5th engineer.I think that these captains realised that we were all here to to a job and he respected each individual and gave them respect.If you stepped over the line you were treated fairly and never questioned the punishment (thats a bit harsh) that was doled out to you.When my son was a cadet the captain would take him and the deckboy for a run ashore.when the ship docked in Liverpool I would most probably have a beer in the captains cabin with my son the cadet!!! Some on here still like to use the title Captain,some on here that were Captains for a lot longer and on bigger ships just use their names these are the Captains that I would've liked to have sailed with and respected.
Regards.
Jim.B.

robpage
31st May 2012, 08:54 PM
From the Irish Times . Today

THE drunk captain of a ship which collided with a passenger ferry in Northern Ireland (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Northern_Ireland), causing more than £1 million of damage, has been jailed for a year.
Miroslaw Pozniak, 55, admitted crashing his cargo boat while three times over the alcohol limit but said it was because of news of his wife's ill-health, his defence barrister told Downpatrick Crown Court.
The married father-of-two was at the helm on March 7 when he crashed into a ferry with 100 passengers and crew on board in Belfast (http://searchtopics.independent.ie/topic/Belfast) Lough after ignoring warnings from coastguards. He had no look-out despite the darkness.
Judge David Smyth QC told Pozniak: "This sentence is to make it clear that the following of the regulations in relation to alcohol and also in relation to the charting and proper adherence to accepted routes is of vital importance.
"The ending of your 30-year career and the sentence effectively demonstrate that."
The defendant dropped his head slightly as sentence was passed.

I had never seen this back in March , but it seems a fair result to me

j.sabourn
31st May 2012, 11:54 PM
Brian, ref. the above glad you enjoyed your time on same. She used to do voyages up to Indonesia, dont know if she still does. As said only 3 full time crew members the rest volunteers. At the time I was on were always looking for professional watchkeepers as volunteers, may have had to do with the insurance. She is/was run on voluntary contributions and believe some of the mining companies kept her going. With the extra taxes that the present government are going to extort from same companys hope they still contribute to her upkeep. I was on the Malcolm Miller years ago as a visitor in Greenock. She had an all girl crew mostly young women. I had to open by big mouth about something so was forced to go aloft or show I was not scared to do so. A couple of matelots I was with (working for the M.O.D. at time) went up also. They came down the fast way sliding down the forestay, I wasnt game for that and came back the way I went. I always thought it would be harder than what it was to handle a ship under sail, but was pleasantly surprised it wasnt. A lot easier than a ships lifeboat with the standing lug and jib. Best Regards John Sabourn

Captain Kong
1st June 2012, 07:57 AM
Hi John. Yes loved every minute of the trip. I wanted to do it again when I was there 9 weeks ago but unfortunately could not find anyone for details.
A great experience.
Cheers
Brian.